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Staves debate, take 57.

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  • #16
    If SSPIN/DSWEEP were changed to the proper MOS+3 or even MOS+2, Staves would still be absolutely amazing and the top choice. Change this. Change just this. Change the rest 6 months, 12 months, 18 months down the road gradually - it's going to be an ongoing project for the rest of TEC. But change this.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Elowynn View Post

      Regardless of what else is done to nudge and tweak other weapons, how is the sspin/dsweep combo good for weapons balancing? This HAS to be changed, regardless of everything else. Why not now? You state that other things are a priority until weapons can be looked at as a whole, and that many other things are a priority first. That means weapons balancing is a long ways away. Why can't this small, unreasonably OP, unbalanced thing be tweaked in the meanwhile, since it's so clear?

      To iteratire: sspin/dsweep. It is too fast. This happens:

      ------------------------------------

      # = time in seconds

      0: Gladiator uses any attack (most weapon attacks are MOS+2 at top end)
      0: Staver SSPINs (MOS+1). Gets the more aggressive RB to do it, too.
      1:
      2: Staver DSWEEP (MOS+1). Also gets the more aggressive RB to do it.
      3: Gladiator would be out of his original RT. Meaning, gladiator did not have time to respond to the original SSPIN before the DSWEEP occurs. Gladiator now is swept, and the rise failure is very high. Gladiator now has additional RT from being swept, or has left openings.
      4: Staver triplebashes, or spinstrikes, or pivots.

      Staver does a couple moves to cycle. Repeats.

      ------------------------------------

      The damage stuff with staves is a separate issue (triplehitting moves in the competitively fastest skillset...), and can be looked at later. Whenever that later is appears to be a long ways away. Meanwhile, please change the RT to sspin/dsweep. This is not balanced regardless of what else is done to any weapon.


      You're not wrong. Why can't this be fixed? It's not an unreasonable request. It's broken. I almost feel like this is a bug. It's gotta be. How can this have gone overlooked? This is clearly broken and needs fixed.

      Pranzor, if you would, please explain to me how this bug isn't being considered more carefully. We're all kinda tired of it being brushed under the rug. This has gotta be a bug, there's no way it's meant to work the way it's currently designed. Increase the round time. That's seriously all we're asking for here. If a stave users comes on here to defend how it's not OP, or that all the other skillsets need to be buffed to be on par with staves, then they're either biased, trolling you, or don't know combat. There's no logical explanation to how dsweep and sspin don't have a slower round time.

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      • #18
        I should also mention, in case it's just going over the GM's heads right now..

        We have a player with the most ranks of any combat character this game has ever seen, using staves, that wasn't his primary weapon to begin with, stating that he wants to see all other skillsets moved -up to par- with staves. Meaning staves are OP.
        You have a member of the BRP, that the playerbase voted for to be elected, voicing his frustrations on the OP'ness of staves currently. (I believe only one other member of the original BRP is currently playing.. But hey guess what? He uses the stave, and it wasn't his primary weapon to begin with)
        You have dozens and dozens of players with 'top tier' characters stating that not only does this need fixed, but it needs fixed now.

        Just throwing that out there, in case the confusion is there.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Pranzor View Post
          Our focus will likely be on making positive changes to other skill sets before making any negative changes. The priority remains on fixing the trait system, a result of a quick fix that had huge impacts on the combat system. There are currently no plans to make any negative changes to the staves skill set, and we do not plan on making all weapon sets entirely homogenous. As I have said before, the combat system is diverse and the hope is to keep it that way.
          I gotta call this out for the same attitude we railed against before with the previous administration.

          "This won't be changed now or anytime soon" is the same answer we got from an Staff that, to our perspective, didn't care, and it was led by a man who didn't know or care to learn.

          Sceadu listened to respond, not to understand. Siddhe listens to understand, and Staff's actions since her appointment makes me believe this is true, and is a genuinely bright light and hope for the future.

          This post here? It smells of the Old Way we all fought so hard to leave behind. You have people of all skills levels, weapon sets, orgs, backgrounds, account ages, and combat experience, all telling you the same thing and I am too: add the RT to the two moves, and re-assess the impact as it plays out.

          Sceadu didn't listen to his customers. I'm begging you not to make the same mistake.

          Comment


          • #20
            I support any change to staves, data shows that they are over powered and need to be looked at
            "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

            Comment


            • #21
              There are two main reasons I killed off my staver, Her story has ran it's coarse and the staves was too perfect a weapon. It is fast, it hits hard, multi hitters, 3 sweeps, near perfect defences, it lacked a lunge but didn't need one due to the fact so many of the skills could be used at either range, with just 2 skill slots you could reach top end pvp. The adding to the MoS is a good idea. No matter how hard I worked on the character in the end it was one I could never really be proud of, in the back of everyone's head a staver is op and a face rolling skill set and they do not have to put in the time and effort other weapon skill sets have to.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Dark997895 View Post

                I gotta call this out for the same attitude we railed against before with the previous administration.

                "This won't be changed now or anytime soon" is the same answer we got from an Staff that, to our perspective, didn't care, and it was led by a man who didn't know or care to learn.

                Sceadu listened to respond, not to understand. Siddhe listens to understand, and Staff's actions since her appointment makes me believe this is true, and is a genuinely bright light and hope for the future.

                This post here? It smells of the Old Way we all fought so hard to leave behind. You have people of all skills levels, weapon sets, orgs, backgrounds, account ages, and combat experience, all telling you the same thing and I am too: add the RT to the two moves, and re-assess the impact as it plays out.

                Sceadu didn't listen to his customers. I'm begging you not to make the same mistake.
                Well said.

                Comment


                • #23
                  To be fair, the roundtimes for both SSPIN and DSWEEP should be looked at. 1+MoS for a stance changing move is illogical. You get a free to hit bonus and can switch stances twice before 75% of skills even have a chance to hit you back. It is an oversight that needs to be changed. Even a regular manual stance change takes 2+MoS.

                  My recommendation goes to having SSPIN and DSWEEP have a roundtime increase from 1+MoS to 2+MoS. It would also leave you open to some attacks in some situations. The main reason Japes changed the tin knife from having a MoS attack is because it made them immune to a lot of skills. This issue with staves is identical. A stance changer at 1+MoS just makes them invulnerable to most attacks.

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                  • #24
                    Shizdain's held several fight nights over the last few years. He uses combat assess (an assessment of total combat ranks that separates the combatants into tiers) to set up even fights. This usually ends up in fairly close matches. I've had to place stavers against people one or two tiers higher than them to even have a remotely close fight, and even then they usually win. This is true for tiers all over the spectrum, not just high lor or medium. All of them. If this isn't an indication something needs to be changed, I'm not sure what is

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Pranzor View Post
                      Our focus will likely be on making positive changes to other skill sets before making any negative changes. The priority remains on fixing the trait system, a result of a quick fix that had huge impacts on the combat system. There are currently no plans to make any negative changes to the staves skill set, and we do not plan on making all weapon sets entirely homogenous. As I have said before, the combat system is diverse and the hope is to keep it that way.

                      I understand that this was the decided direction to go in. Could you share the reasoning for this decision? Is the idea that this has a greater benefit to the overall game and if so what aspects do you take into consideration when deciding what to tackle first?
                      A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                      A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                      A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                      “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

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                      • #26
                        Just chiming in to say this is not the will of an outspoken minority. This is something we all want.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Dark997895 View Post

                          I gotta call this out for the same attitude we railed against before with the previous administration.

                          "This won't be changed now or anytime soon" is the same answer we got from an Staff that, to our perspective, didn't care, and it was led by a man who didn't know or care to learn.

                          Sceadu listened to respond, not to understand. Siddhe listens to understand, and Staff's actions since her appointment makes me believe this is true, and is a genuinely bright light and hope for the future.

                          This post here? It smells of the Old Way we all fought so hard to leave behind. You have people of all skills levels, weapon sets, orgs, backgrounds, account ages, and combat experience, all telling you the same thing and I am too: add the RT to the two moves, and re-assess the impact as it plays out.

                          Sceadu didn't listen to his customers. I'm begging you not to make the same mistake.
                          This right here. Not only ANOTHER agreement on staves needing this hotfix, but also the attitude of "The Old Way" being unacceptable.
                          Originally posted by Arconn9
                          First time I used Sabinus today, since my old main got Cuttongued. So was the IC event for his change; was it him getting hit in the head repeatedly by someone? Because I think he's a retard now.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I don't think I've ever seen so much of the playerbase agree about something game related as I have seen with this issue. To me, that says everything. If the idea is to bring other weapons up to par with staves, and to keep the combat system diverse, then this change is even more needed. Having multiple weapons with this sort of ability is simply not a smart decision. Adding an extra second will still leave staves as the best weapon choice, while making it a proper model to find what positive changes to make to other weapons, (as that seems to be the preferred stance moving forward).

                            I would like to echo Dark as well. There are a LOT of people holding on to hope that things are going to be different moving forward, and that our voices will finally be heard. I sincerely hope that the brick wall and shiny tower are not still in place.
                            Originally posted by Atilu
                            You'd probably be happier if you just didn't come to the forums.
                            Nicarus says to you, "Ya should shadow me an' keep track o' things. We can call it tha Dew-y number-ic system or somethin'.... have to work on that"

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                            • #29
                              Just me agreeing with all of the above. You have the ability to test how this proposed change would affect combat. Instead of saying No, please run some tests. You will find that this suggestion isnít outrageous but is needed. If you are concerned about opening up Pandoraís box (fixing this means youíll have to fix other imbalances) you are looking at it incorrectly. This one combo throws off EVERYTHING about combat and limits players choices unnecessarily.

                              The current meta of the game is to pick Cineran. Why? Because it has the best trait opportunities. The best weapon is staves because all of the reasons given.

                              If there is a reason for making staves the king of weapons then please share. But even if that is the intent adjusting these two moves are a necessary change.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                If I could make some changes to combat they would look something like.... (Part 1 due to availability)

                                General
                                1. Make sweep mechanics like the new ankle trap mechanics. Why they did this and didn't change sweep is beyond me.
                                2. Increase rolling rise chance from 75% or whatever it is to 90%
                                3. Review what moves are actually affected by weapon stances. Some skillsets have all skills and some have none that are affected by the stances.

                                Staves
                                1. Increase the roundtime of defensive sweep by 1 second
                                2. Increase the roundtime of stepping spin by 1 second
                                3. Remove the +20 bonus that spin strike has
                                4. Increase the difficulty of stepping spin to difficult. This should overcome the stupid bonus it gets for changing stances
                                5. Increase the difficulty of defensive sweep to difficult.
                                6. Decrease the damage of parting smash slightly.

                                Notes: Staves is one of the only skillsets where the stance bonus +20ish affects all moves.

                                Spears
                                1. Increase the roundtime of stepping stab by 1 second
                                2. Increase the difficulty of parting jab to average

                                Notes: Spears are in a good place at the moment.

                                Whips
                                1. Add a new skill parting strike. Requirements - 20 ranks in Shield Push Back, 20 ranks in Simple Strike
                                2. Change Circle rake to Stepping Circle Rake.
                                3. Change the dodges for rake to something more realistic and not the easy blocks. Crake has a huge penalty
                                4. Add a difficult/impossible block or dodge to help against weapon strike.
                                5. Give stance bonus to some of the other whip moves.
                                6. Chance flick strike from average to easy.

                                Notes: Whips are okay at the moment because of ankle trap, without that they are just okay.

                                Cestus
                                1. Fix the low hole.
                                2. Stepping slash..

                                Allow us to pick up an item off the ground and auto stow the cestii that you are wielding into your sack. They are the most annoying weapon to go hunting with

                                Notes:

                                Knives
                                1. Stance for normal knife skills that increases speed for x seconds when critical hit has landed.
                                2. Stepping stab
                                3. Stance bonuses

                                Knives are very lack luster right now.

                                Pardelian
                                1. Nerf the damage of ankle thrust and pardelian will be pretty close to being perfect.

                                Notes: I may be jealous because I cant learn pardelian.

                                Nelsor
                                1. Add in a stepping move. It makes sense as this is an offensive skillset.
                                2. Remove the stupid shield rules. Have you watched spartacus? Gladiators use nelsor and big shields.
                                3. Review stance bonuses

                                Notes: Make gladiator weapons great again.

                                Avros
                                1. Remove the opening bullshit.

                                Shields
                                1. Shield Charge - Approach an enemy with a chance of stunning or knocking them down.


                                Small bonuses for taking skills past 100:

                                Offensive skill rank 500 - Bonus to hit
                                Defensive skill rank 400 - Bonus to defense


                                Will post more later
                                .

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