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Staves debate, take 57.

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  • masterz
    replied
    Originally posted by lykatos View Post

    I agree with everything except this part... bandages were sold for years without a fix LMAO.
    And then on the other end of the spectrum, Kevin "fixed" BC iron swords after about 2.6 minutes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ryzen
    replied
    Yeah, that was ultimately what did it for a couple people I know who just up and quit once that mechanic was added. My goal of taking the stave on my previous main was solely to get the weapon nerfed and prove a point. I took ankle trap to 1000/1000 and switched to staves after whips were made practically useless, trained for two months and was top tier again with a brand new weapon. It was quite ridiculous. I do like the changes that are coming to the trait system, but that's not going to fix the main issue with staves.

    I don't think leaving openings on a rise is necessarily a bad thing, but my focus became to actually make people rise so I could sweepstrike or dsweep a low opening, or extort mid/high openings appropriately. On slower reacting opponents I was able to punish a high opening twice due to the ridiculously fast RT of staves. It was really neat tactically, but no other weapon has mechanics that rival it. Combat just got really boring for me, despite high-tier PvP already kinda being that case anyways.

    I think the RT is really what needs to be looked at in terms of staves. You shouldn't be firing back to back triple hitters in 1+mos with an iron-capped, that's just ridiculous DPS/crit rate.

    I miss the BRP, you guys all had your disagreements, but at least you all seemed to want what was best for weapon balancing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rinduck
    replied
    No, and that was always my main complaint. I understand the need for sweep to have a purpose in pvp, but it's really strong right now. My suggestion was to leave the chance for opening, but completely remove the chance for completely failing the rolling rise. That would tame the dsweep combos quite a bit

    Leave a comment:


  • Ryzen
    replied
    Did they ever fix rolling rise from giving free openings when you sweep people?

    Leave a comment:


  • Rinduck
    replied
    But we've already got all these torches and pitchforks out...

    In all honesty, the diplomacy and transparency is appreciated, as is the hard work towards the trait system and everything else. I have full faith staves will be adjusted in good time.
    I'm not sure if you can keep this up, but it's a damn sight better than what we're used to. I'm eager to see what direction the game will take.

    Leave a comment:


  • Copen
    replied
    Thanks for using some crucial accountability and crucial communicating skills. I do appreciate that aspect of things. The curiousness of new traits is there- the question will be the implementation of things. Like are we replacing the traits we have had for 19yrs-- or will this all be new character based traits? -- if your on vacation please go enjoy it answers will wait.

    Originally posted by Siddhe View Post
    We're traveling and I'm responding via my phone, so apologies for any typos.

    Please don't take umbrage with Pranzor, as he is only stating what I've requested: leave combat updates alone until traits are completed. A death of a thousand paper cuts or micro nerfs has lead us to many less than desirable outcomes over the years, and I would like us to *avoid* similar situations going forward.

    We are almost ready to share the list of proposed traits. We've been coding and testing them for viability and function, and they're almost ready for feedback. So the "just do it now, it'll take forever to wait for traits" argument isn't a valid one.

    I'd also like to ask we don't start with this "ermagherd, it's the Old Way rearing its head" rhetoric when you hear "not right now" as an answer. It's not "no, nope, heck no" - it's, let's take our time and do this right. If this is, indeed, something people feel has been broken "for years", another couple of weeks while we fix a larger system that will impact basically everything shouldn't cause Rome to burn

    We are, as we have been, open to feedback about everything. I have answered every DM, request for a convo, feedback, bell ring, email, etc. Sometimes, due to work, I have to say "now isn't a good time", but I've never said "nope, don't want to hear it." I've sat in the WR to chat, as have other GMs. We are listening, we are interested in what you have to say, but we aren't going to rush through changes to appease people. Again, death of a thousand paper cuts is something we are actively trying to avoid.

    tl;dr combat changes will be after traits; traits are almost ready to share for your approval.

    Leave a comment:


  • lykatos
    replied
    Originally posted by Tweninger View Post
    If I could buy scissors for 10 denar, and sell them in Monlon for 30 denar, 1000 at a time. It'd be fixed immediately.
    I agree with everything except this part... bandages were sold for years without a fix LMAO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tweninger
    replied
    Originally posted by Siddhe View Post
    We're traveling and I'm responding via my phone, so apologies for any typos.

    Please don't take umbrage with Pranzor, as he is only stating what I've requested: leave combat updates alone until traits are completed. A death of a thousand paper cuts or micro nerfs has lead us to many less than desirable outcomes over the years, and I would like us to *avoid* similar situations going forward.

    We are almost ready to share the list of proposed traits. We've been coding and testing them for viability and function, and they're almost ready for feedback. So the "just do it now, it'll take forever to wait for traits" argument isn't a valid one.

    I'd also like to ask we don't start with this "ermagherd, it's the Old Way rearing its head" rhetoric when you hear "not right now" as an answer. It's not "no, nope, heck no" - it's, let's take our time and do this right. If this is, indeed, something people feel has been broken "for years", another couple of weeks while we fix a larger system that will impact basically everything shouldn't cause Rome to burn

    We are, as we have been, open to feedback about everything. I have answered every DM, request for a convo, feedback, bell ring, email, etc. Sometimes, due to work, I have to say "now isn't a good time", but I've never said "nope, don't want to hear it." I've sat in the WR to chat, as have other GMs. We are listening, we are interested in what you have to say, but we aren't going to rush through changes to appease people. Again, death of a thousand paper cuts is something we are actively trying to avoid.

    tl;dr combat changes will be after traits; traits are almost ready to share for your approval.
    While I appreciate your feedback and input on the matter here, I still don't get why it's being brushed under the rug.

    Whatever combat tweaks you guys will do later on down the road, this -1- change will still need to happen. It's an inevitable change. All of Syden's suggestions on his previous point are pretty valid. He's wanting to take the time and effort to make them all work, and that'll take a long time and effort on the GM's to make sure that happens, without any inbalances in the system. Take a look at the first two bullet points in his post. He, and pretty much every playing customer of yours, is asking for the round times to be increased.. I don't think it's a big request for something to finally get fixed. If I could buy scissors for 10 denar, and sell them in Monlon for 30 denar, 1000 at a time. It'd be fixed immediately. If I could dsweep and sspin back to back before my opponent gets out of their round time, it should be fixed immediately. I'm not sure if this is an oversight, or if it's actually intended, but I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase complaining about staves, for years now, should give a pretty good indication that it's likely not working as intended.

    I'm glad you're working on traits. We're all glad. The playerbase complained heavily for a couple weeks and you're making it right, by taking the time to do something that wasn't really effecting the gameworld right then and there. It was a change that would have effected a lot of characters, on a longer time scale.

    We're asking for this change to be fixed now. We've complained heavily for years instead of weeks, and it literally effects us, right now. Why the brushing under the rug.

    The house is still burning, and you have the hose Siddhe. Put the flame out please.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kered
    replied
    Thank you I have complete faith in you, happy vacation take mountain pictures!

    Leave a comment:


  • Siddhe
    replied
    We're traveling and I'm responding via my phone, so apologies for any typos.

    Please don't take umbrage with Pranzor, as he is only stating what I've requested: leave combat updates alone until traits are completed. A death of a thousand paper cuts or micro nerfs has lead us to many less than desirable outcomes over the years, and I would like us to *avoid* similar situations going forward.

    We are almost ready to share the list of proposed traits. We've been coding and testing them for viability and function, and they're almost ready for feedback. So the "just do it now, it'll take forever to wait for traits" argument isn't a valid one.

    I'd also like to ask we don't start with this "ermagherd, it's the Old Way rearing its head" rhetoric when you hear "not right now" as an answer. It's not "no, nope, heck no" - it's, let's take our time and do this right. If this is, indeed, something people feel has been broken "for years", another couple of weeks while we fix a larger system that will impact basically everything shouldn't cause Rome to burn

    We are, as we have been, open to feedback about everything. I have answered every DM, request for a convo, feedback, bell ring, email, etc. Sometimes, due to work, I have to say "now isn't a good time", but I've never said "nope, don't want to hear it." I've sat in the WR to chat, as have other GMs. We are listening, we are interested in what you have to say, but we aren't going to rush through changes to appease people. Again, death of a thousand paper cuts is something we are actively trying to avoid.

    tl;dr combat changes will be after traits; traits are almost ready to share for your approval.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kered
    replied
    Iím actually disappointed Synodia hasnít got staves nerfed since your good at everything else get to it!

    Leave a comment:


  • mikeand
    replied
    Staves are fine. #StavesEnvy2019

    Leave a comment:


  • Syden
    replied
    If I could make some changes to combat they would look something like.... (Part 1 due to availability)

    General
    1. Make sweep mechanics like the new ankle trap mechanics. Why they did this and didn't change sweep is beyond me.
    2. Increase rolling rise chance from 75% or whatever it is to 90%
    3. Review what moves are actually affected by weapon stances. Some skillsets have all skills and some have none that are affected by the stances.

    Staves
    1. Increase the roundtime of defensive sweep by 1 second
    2. Increase the roundtime of stepping spin by 1 second
    3. Remove the +20 bonus that spin strike has
    4. Increase the difficulty of stepping spin to difficult. This should overcome the stupid bonus it gets for changing stances
    5. Increase the difficulty of defensive sweep to difficult.
    6. Decrease the damage of parting smash slightly.

    Notes: Staves is one of the only skillsets where the stance bonus +20ish affects all moves.

    Spears
    1. Increase the roundtime of stepping stab by 1 second
    2. Increase the difficulty of parting jab to average

    Notes: Spears are in a good place at the moment.

    Whips
    1. Add a new skill parting strike. Requirements - 20 ranks in Shield Push Back, 20 ranks in Simple Strike
    2. Change Circle rake to Stepping Circle Rake.
    3. Change the dodges for rake to something more realistic and not the easy blocks. Crake has a huge penalty
    4. Add a difficult/impossible block or dodge to help against weapon strike.
    5. Give stance bonus to some of the other whip moves.
    6. Chance flick strike from average to easy.

    Notes: Whips are okay at the moment because of ankle trap, without that they are just okay.

    Cestus
    1. Fix the low hole.
    2. Stepping slash..

    Allow us to pick up an item off the ground and auto stow the cestii that you are wielding into your sack. They are the most annoying weapon to go hunting with

    Notes:

    Knives
    1. Stance for normal knife skills that increases speed for x seconds when critical hit has landed.
    2. Stepping stab
    3. Stance bonuses

    Knives are very lack luster right now.

    Pardelian
    1. Nerf the damage of ankle thrust and pardelian will be pretty close to being perfect.

    Notes: I may be jealous because I cant learn pardelian.

    Nelsor
    1. Add in a stepping move. It makes sense as this is an offensive skillset.
    2. Remove the stupid shield rules. Have you watched spartacus? Gladiators use nelsor and big shields.
    3. Review stance bonuses

    Notes: Make gladiator weapons great again.

    Avros
    1. Remove the opening bullshit.

    Shields
    1. Shield Charge - Approach an enemy with a chance of stunning or knocking them down.


    Small bonuses for taking skills past 100:

    Offensive skill rank 500 - Bonus to hit
    Defensive skill rank 400 - Bonus to defense


    Will post more later

    Leave a comment:


  • Ariden
    replied
    Just me agreeing with all of the above. You have the ability to test how this proposed change would affect combat. Instead of saying No, please run some tests. You will find that this suggestion isnít outrageous but is needed. If you are concerned about opening up Pandoraís box (fixing this means youíll have to fix other imbalances) you are looking at it incorrectly. This one combo throws off EVERYTHING about combat and limits players choices unnecessarily.

    The current meta of the game is to pick Cineran. Why? Because it has the best trait opportunities. The best weapon is staves because all of the reasons given.

    If there is a reason for making staves the king of weapons then please share. But even if that is the intent adjusting these two moves are a necessary change.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dewdropdoodles
    replied
    I don't think I've ever seen so much of the playerbase agree about something game related as I have seen with this issue. To me, that says everything. If the idea is to bring other weapons up to par with staves, and to keep the combat system diverse, then this change is even more needed. Having multiple weapons with this sort of ability is simply not a smart decision. Adding an extra second will still leave staves as the best weapon choice, while making it a proper model to find what positive changes to make to other weapons, (as that seems to be the preferred stance moving forward).

    I would like to echo Dark as well. There are a LOT of people holding on to hope that things are going to be different moving forward, and that our voices will finally be heard. I sincerely hope that the brick wall and shiny tower are not still in place.

    Leave a comment:

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