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Staves debate, take 57.

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  • Tweninger
    started a topic Staves debate, take 57.

    Staves debate, take 57.

    In all of my years of playing a combat character, I've never seen such a huge outcry for a fix, just to be told that it's balanced and won't be changed.

    Staves have been OP for years now and it's time for it to change. Let me put it in to perspective, in case the GM's just don't look at character skillsets anymore.

    There are, off the top of my head, 3 characters that have over 20k TCR - All started with a different weapon. All now use staves as their primary weapon.
    There is a huge percentage of the playerbase that believes staves are OP.

    "I feel like this is a tweak that is needed, OUTSIDE of "weapon balancing"
    all the other stuff is fine and dandy, but this is an absolute necessity. it's like looking at a fixer upper and saying yeah, it'd be nice to get a contractor in for everything, that's what's truly needed - but goddamn if the house is on fire, ya really need to put that out first."

    Quote from a top end character and veteran player of the game...

    The sad thing about this, is that it shouldn't be that difficult to fix. We (the vast majority of the playerbase) aren't asking to re-code the entire skillset. We're asking for 1, probably 2 total attacks to have their round times increased. That's it. To be able to seamlessly fly through stances before I can even follow up with an attack, kinda seems broke. I truly seems broke. I don't think that's how it's suppose to work.. Why.. How would that seem to be fair? The 5 weapons I know on my main, none of them even have -1- stepping move, let alone 2 that can be done in a seamless motion.

    Here's some facts about staves currently.
    They have 3 sweeping attacks, 2 of which can not be risen from perfectly. The % is also pretty big. Likely bigger then any other skillset that has 1 sweep, not 2, cause that skillset doesn't exist.. and certainly not the skillset that has 3 sweeping moves, because that's only the staves skillset.
    They have 3 parting moves. 1 of which does top end damage, easily. No other parting move comes close.
    They have 3 triple hitting moves, besides the whip, knife, and needlestrike, no other weapon comes close to multi-hitters.
    They have the best defense of any polearm in the game.
    They have the ability to switch from bruising to slashing. Cool perk, but no real mechanical advantage, outside of being capable of making someone bleed from 8 places in 1 single fight (ask me how I know)


    All of these things.. Sure. Seem a little OP, but overall. That's balanced. I'll take it.

    What I can't understand is how you, the GM's think the ability to use a stepping move (triple hitter), that attacks in the more aggressive stance's rank bonus, and then, be capable of using a defensive move in a fluid round time, quicker then most people can get out of their current round time, is not broken.

    Pranzor is the GM in charge of combat, I heard? You say it's balanced? Why are all the top 5, maybe even 10 best combat characters in game switching to staves. That might be something that's not public knowledge, because a lof of those characters are wanting that to remain secret, but I'm not dropping any names, and I know it's true. There's a LOT of top end characters that use the stave. Why? Because it's a fun skillset? They picked up the whip/pankration/spear/axe/club/knife, all before they knew the stave. You mean to tell me that -all- of them thought that staves would be a fun skillset to pick up as a secondary weapon? The 10 other combat skills in the game didn't interest -any- of those players? Seems kinda... weird?

    Just fix the round time of stepping spin and dsweep, for the love of all things holy. It's been years, and dozens of posts and threads and @reports, just for them to be swept under the rug. You guys are making Seld a thing, and we're pumped. You fixed a decimal point that fixed catching massive fish. Cool. You guys are working on a trait system (which by the way, less people complained about, for like 3 weeks) and you guys are working on a solution. How about taking the 41 seconds to move a few numbers in the code and fix the RT's of one of the, if not the greatest combat inbalance that this game has ever seen.

    Detain was fixed.
    Ankle trap was fixed.
    Round strike neck was fixed.
    Chop mid was fixed.
    Stab and slash was fixed.
    Quickstring was fixed.

    The list goes on. These aren't things that completely altered how combat works within TEC, These are things that were broken. They were fixed. Some took way longer then others. Some took me getting caught afk scripting and banned for 5 years. Some took me and Jeanine doing nothing but ankle trapping in fights to annoy people. All of them were fixed.

    Again, it's not me, it's you. You the GM's, need to understand, that there's a LOT of players with extensive knowledge on the combat system, without even getting to look at the code, to know that SSPIN and DSWEEP are broken. Please fix.

    Sincerely; someone who's not going to proof read this message.
    Ty

  • masterz
    replied
    Originally posted by lykatos View Post

    I agree with everything except this part... bandages were sold for years without a fix LMAO.
    And then on the other end of the spectrum, Kevin "fixed" BC iron swords after about 2.6 minutes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ryzen
    replied
    Yeah, that was ultimately what did it for a couple people I know who just up and quit once that mechanic was added. My goal of taking the stave on my previous main was solely to get the weapon nerfed and prove a point. I took ankle trap to 1000/1000 and switched to staves after whips were made practically useless, trained for two months and was top tier again with a brand new weapon. It was quite ridiculous. I do like the changes that are coming to the trait system, but that's not going to fix the main issue with staves.

    I don't think leaving openings on a rise is necessarily a bad thing, but my focus became to actually make people rise so I could sweepstrike or dsweep a low opening, or extort mid/high openings appropriately. On slower reacting opponents I was able to punish a high opening twice due to the ridiculously fast RT of staves. It was really neat tactically, but no other weapon has mechanics that rival it. Combat just got really boring for me, despite high-tier PvP already kinda being that case anyways.

    I think the RT is really what needs to be looked at in terms of staves. You shouldn't be firing back to back triple hitters in 1+mos with an iron-capped, that's just ridiculous DPS/crit rate.

    I miss the BRP, you guys all had your disagreements, but at least you all seemed to want what was best for weapon balancing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rinduck
    replied
    No, and that was always my main complaint. I understand the need for sweep to have a purpose in pvp, but it's really strong right now. My suggestion was to leave the chance for opening, but completely remove the chance for completely failing the rolling rise. That would tame the dsweep combos quite a bit

    Leave a comment:


  • Ryzen
    replied
    Did they ever fix rolling rise from giving free openings when you sweep people?

    Leave a comment:


  • Rinduck
    replied
    But we've already got all these torches and pitchforks out...

    In all honesty, the diplomacy and transparency is appreciated, as is the hard work towards the trait system and everything else. I have full faith staves will be adjusted in good time.
    I'm not sure if you can keep this up, but it's a damn sight better than what we're used to. I'm eager to see what direction the game will take.

    Leave a comment:


  • Copen
    replied
    Thanks for using some crucial accountability and crucial communicating skills. I do appreciate that aspect of things. The curiousness of new traits is there- the question will be the implementation of things. Like are we replacing the traits we have had for 19yrs-- or will this all be new character based traits? -- if your on vacation please go enjoy it answers will wait.

    Originally posted by Siddhe View Post
    We're traveling and I'm responding via my phone, so apologies for any typos.

    Please don't take umbrage with Pranzor, as he is only stating what I've requested: leave combat updates alone until traits are completed. A death of a thousand paper cuts or micro nerfs has lead us to many less than desirable outcomes over the years, and I would like us to *avoid* similar situations going forward.

    We are almost ready to share the list of proposed traits. We've been coding and testing them for viability and function, and they're almost ready for feedback. So the "just do it now, it'll take forever to wait for traits" argument isn't a valid one.

    I'd also like to ask we don't start with this "ermagherd, it's the Old Way rearing its head" rhetoric when you hear "not right now" as an answer. It's not "no, nope, heck no" - it's, let's take our time and do this right. If this is, indeed, something people feel has been broken "for years", another couple of weeks while we fix a larger system that will impact basically everything shouldn't cause Rome to burn

    We are, as we have been, open to feedback about everything. I have answered every DM, request for a convo, feedback, bell ring, email, etc. Sometimes, due to work, I have to say "now isn't a good time", but I've never said "nope, don't want to hear it." I've sat in the WR to chat, as have other GMs. We are listening, we are interested in what you have to say, but we aren't going to rush through changes to appease people. Again, death of a thousand paper cuts is something we are actively trying to avoid.

    tl;dr combat changes will be after traits; traits are almost ready to share for your approval.

    Leave a comment:


  • lykatos
    replied
    Originally posted by Tweninger View Post
    If I could buy scissors for 10 denar, and sell them in Monlon for 30 denar, 1000 at a time. It'd be fixed immediately.
    I agree with everything except this part... bandages were sold for years without a fix LMAO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tweninger
    replied
    Originally posted by Siddhe View Post
    We're traveling and I'm responding via my phone, so apologies for any typos.

    Please don't take umbrage with Pranzor, as he is only stating what I've requested: leave combat updates alone until traits are completed. A death of a thousand paper cuts or micro nerfs has lead us to many less than desirable outcomes over the years, and I would like us to *avoid* similar situations going forward.

    We are almost ready to share the list of proposed traits. We've been coding and testing them for viability and function, and they're almost ready for feedback. So the "just do it now, it'll take forever to wait for traits" argument isn't a valid one.

    I'd also like to ask we don't start with this "ermagherd, it's the Old Way rearing its head" rhetoric when you hear "not right now" as an answer. It's not "no, nope, heck no" - it's, let's take our time and do this right. If this is, indeed, something people feel has been broken "for years", another couple of weeks while we fix a larger system that will impact basically everything shouldn't cause Rome to burn

    We are, as we have been, open to feedback about everything. I have answered every DM, request for a convo, feedback, bell ring, email, etc. Sometimes, due to work, I have to say "now isn't a good time", but I've never said "nope, don't want to hear it." I've sat in the WR to chat, as have other GMs. We are listening, we are interested in what you have to say, but we aren't going to rush through changes to appease people. Again, death of a thousand paper cuts is something we are actively trying to avoid.

    tl;dr combat changes will be after traits; traits are almost ready to share for your approval.
    While I appreciate your feedback and input on the matter here, I still don't get why it's being brushed under the rug.

    Whatever combat tweaks you guys will do later on down the road, this -1- change will still need to happen. It's an inevitable change. All of Syden's suggestions on his previous point are pretty valid. He's wanting to take the time and effort to make them all work, and that'll take a long time and effort on the GM's to make sure that happens, without any inbalances in the system. Take a look at the first two bullet points in his post. He, and pretty much every playing customer of yours, is asking for the round times to be increased.. I don't think it's a big request for something to finally get fixed. If I could buy scissors for 10 denar, and sell them in Monlon for 30 denar, 1000 at a time. It'd be fixed immediately. If I could dsweep and sspin back to back before my opponent gets out of their round time, it should be fixed immediately. I'm not sure if this is an oversight, or if it's actually intended, but I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase complaining about staves, for years now, should give a pretty good indication that it's likely not working as intended.

    I'm glad you're working on traits. We're all glad. The playerbase complained heavily for a couple weeks and you're making it right, by taking the time to do something that wasn't really effecting the gameworld right then and there. It was a change that would have effected a lot of characters, on a longer time scale.

    We're asking for this change to be fixed now. We've complained heavily for years instead of weeks, and it literally effects us, right now. Why the brushing under the rug.

    The house is still burning, and you have the hose Siddhe. Put the flame out please.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kered
    replied
    Thank you I have complete faith in you, happy vacation take mountain pictures!

    Leave a comment:


  • Siddhe
    replied
    We're traveling and I'm responding via my phone, so apologies for any typos.

    Please don't take umbrage with Pranzor, as he is only stating what I've requested: leave combat updates alone until traits are completed. A death of a thousand paper cuts or micro nerfs has lead us to many less than desirable outcomes over the years, and I would like us to *avoid* similar situations going forward.

    We are almost ready to share the list of proposed traits. We've been coding and testing them for viability and function, and they're almost ready for feedback. So the "just do it now, it'll take forever to wait for traits" argument isn't a valid one.

    I'd also like to ask we don't start with this "ermagherd, it's the Old Way rearing its head" rhetoric when you hear "not right now" as an answer. It's not "no, nope, heck no" - it's, let's take our time and do this right. If this is, indeed, something people feel has been broken "for years", another couple of weeks while we fix a larger system that will impact basically everything shouldn't cause Rome to burn

    We are, as we have been, open to feedback about everything. I have answered every DM, request for a convo, feedback, bell ring, email, etc. Sometimes, due to work, I have to say "now isn't a good time", but I've never said "nope, don't want to hear it." I've sat in the WR to chat, as have other GMs. We are listening, we are interested in what you have to say, but we aren't going to rush through changes to appease people. Again, death of a thousand paper cuts is something we are actively trying to avoid.

    tl;dr combat changes will be after traits; traits are almost ready to share for your approval.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kered
    replied
    Iím actually disappointed Synodia hasnít got staves nerfed since your good at everything else get to it!

    Leave a comment:


  • mikeand
    replied
    Staves are fine. #StavesEnvy2019

    Leave a comment:


  • Syden
    replied
    If I could make some changes to combat they would look something like.... (Part 1 due to availability)

    General
    1. Make sweep mechanics like the new ankle trap mechanics. Why they did this and didn't change sweep is beyond me.
    2. Increase rolling rise chance from 75% or whatever it is to 90%
    3. Review what moves are actually affected by weapon stances. Some skillsets have all skills and some have none that are affected by the stances.

    Staves
    1. Increase the roundtime of defensive sweep by 1 second
    2. Increase the roundtime of stepping spin by 1 second
    3. Remove the +20 bonus that spin strike has
    4. Increase the difficulty of stepping spin to difficult. This should overcome the stupid bonus it gets for changing stances
    5. Increase the difficulty of defensive sweep to difficult.
    6. Decrease the damage of parting smash slightly.

    Notes: Staves is one of the only skillsets where the stance bonus +20ish affects all moves.

    Spears
    1. Increase the roundtime of stepping stab by 1 second
    2. Increase the difficulty of parting jab to average

    Notes: Spears are in a good place at the moment.

    Whips
    1. Add a new skill parting strike. Requirements - 20 ranks in Shield Push Back, 20 ranks in Simple Strike
    2. Change Circle rake to Stepping Circle Rake.
    3. Change the dodges for rake to something more realistic and not the easy blocks. Crake has a huge penalty
    4. Add a difficult/impossible block or dodge to help against weapon strike.
    5. Give stance bonus to some of the other whip moves.
    6. Chance flick strike from average to easy.

    Notes: Whips are okay at the moment because of ankle trap, without that they are just okay.

    Cestus
    1. Fix the low hole.
    2. Stepping slash..

    Allow us to pick up an item off the ground and auto stow the cestii that you are wielding into your sack. They are the most annoying weapon to go hunting with

    Notes:

    Knives
    1. Stance for normal knife skills that increases speed for x seconds when critical hit has landed.
    2. Stepping stab
    3. Stance bonuses

    Knives are very lack luster right now.

    Pardelian
    1. Nerf the damage of ankle thrust and pardelian will be pretty close to being perfect.

    Notes: I may be jealous because I cant learn pardelian.

    Nelsor
    1. Add in a stepping move. It makes sense as this is an offensive skillset.
    2. Remove the stupid shield rules. Have you watched spartacus? Gladiators use nelsor and big shields.
    3. Review stance bonuses

    Notes: Make gladiator weapons great again.

    Avros
    1. Remove the opening bullshit.

    Shields
    1. Shield Charge - Approach an enemy with a chance of stunning or knocking them down.


    Small bonuses for taking skills past 100:

    Offensive skill rank 500 - Bonus to hit
    Defensive skill rank 400 - Bonus to defense


    Will post more later

    Leave a comment:


  • Ariden
    replied
    Just me agreeing with all of the above. You have the ability to test how this proposed change would affect combat. Instead of saying No, please run some tests. You will find that this suggestion isnít outrageous but is needed. If you are concerned about opening up Pandoraís box (fixing this means youíll have to fix other imbalances) you are looking at it incorrectly. This one combo throws off EVERYTHING about combat and limits players choices unnecessarily.

    The current meta of the game is to pick Cineran. Why? Because it has the best trait opportunities. The best weapon is staves because all of the reasons given.

    If there is a reason for making staves the king of weapons then please share. But even if that is the intent adjusting these two moves are a necessary change.

    Leave a comment:

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