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  • #16
    Data testing Spears 20 ranks basic ten subs vs 555 basic and over 150 subs iron spear and wooden spear vs boision superior and reqalt good gladii on bandits spears win . Iíll gladly bring anyone to witness. I will also set up a log since data trumps opinion .
    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Kered View Post
      Data testing Spears 20 ranks basic ten subs vs 555 basic and over 150 subs iron spear and wooden spear vs boision superior and reqalt good gladii on bandits spears win . Iíll gladly bring anyone to witness. I will also set up a log since data trumps opinion .
      Ranks wont effect the actual 'tier' damage for either of those weapons. Just increase the critical 'severity' aka increase more crippling criticals, so on. So, I dont see the point of the whole 20 ranks basics thing.

      Also, do you actually think a sword should really do as much damage as a spear anyway? You want to complain about Avros damage lacking versus Nelsor and Pard, I will agree with you, but lets not bring spears into this. It's a big ass polearm thats normally slower than the average top tier weapon and severely lacking slash defense.

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      • #18
        I'm actually in agreement with swords being fine where they are. My main is a glad user and was without a style for almost a RL year and their damage sucks. Like Phillipe said OHS is essentially homework ranks for your toon and you should think of it like that. You get easy attacks and your blocks out of it, which are used in all three styles. The nice thing about easy moves is that if you are needing to hit someone with high defenses the RB works in your favor. It's obviously not how you will win in PvP but it is a good space filler for your power moves, which you should get from your skillset.

        I haven't played Avros, and don't think I will, but I think you should leave the openings on some of the moves in the skillset but balance that with higher levels of damage. Make it a risk vs. reward scenario. That way you pick your opportunities to hit with your homerun hitter, if it's not level 5 it should be.

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        • #19
          IMO Jab is still the bomb diggity across all skillsets. Besides weak damage and poor crit quality, at least it hits. Don't quote me on this, but I think that stab and twist also increases jab damage. I tossed out all my notes, so I can't remember diddly squat.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ariden View Post
            I'm actually in agreement with swords being fine where they are. My main is a glad user and was without a style for almost a RL year and their damage sucks. Like Phillipe said OHS is essentially homework ranks for your toon and you should think of it like that. You get easy attacks and your blocks out of it, which are used in all three styles. The nice thing about easy moves is that if you are needing to hit someone with high defenses the RB works in your favor. It's obviously not how you will win in PvP but it is a good space filler for your power moves, which you should get from your skillset.

            I haven't played Avros, and don't think I will, but I think you should leave the openings on some of the moves in the skillset but balance that with higher levels of damage. Make it a risk vs. reward scenario. That way you pick your opportunities to hit with your homerun hitter, if it's not level 5 it should be.
            This literally reads to me, yes the damage sucks, and yes you have to have an entire skill set (outside of knives) no other weapons has and its ok. I'm gonna have to disagree, and avros damage is giant crappo, there is no home run hitter
            "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Kered View Post

              This literally reads to me, yes the damage sucks, and yes you have to have an entire skill set (outside of knives) no other weapons has and its ok. I'm gonna have to disagree, and avros damage is giant crappo, there is no home run hitter
              Not to mention, whether or not Avros and Nelsor get a move that buffs select attacks on OHS or not, Pardelian already has one.

              I'm not entirely sure why people think 'homework ranks' in this instance is a quality mechanic. OHS has 6 blocks that accomplish less than the 3 in staves do. If I pick up a stave, I have two skill sets to learn, if I pick up a sword, I have 4 minimum. It's not as if we're getting extra credit for turning in more homework here, we're working twice as hard just to get the same grade, or slightly lower.

              There was an idea tossed out on the discord a while back I believe, that suggested style skillsets no longer take up skillslots, or take up the same skillslot as the skillset they are paired to. Do we think a change like this would take some of the sting out of choosing your investment?
              Last edited by Rupert; 06-25-2019, 07:15 PM.
              Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
              I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

              You mean it's true?
              Originally posted by Phwoar
              Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
              Originally posted by Elowynn
              Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

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              • #22
                If you want to fix it. Make OHS the best defensive set. Coupling that with the benefits of the styles would make it worth it. And if Avros doesn’t have heavy hitters then that needs to be fixed.

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                • #23
                  Holy sweet trout, Rupert gets 90 percent of it!
                  "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                  • #24
                    Rolling the styles into basic OHS would help with the sheer training volume to compete with anything else. Rank requirements turn places like Franlius into a slow hell and almost force you to push basic OHS down into a lower slot to train maneuvers and a style. The same could be said of knives/CKF to an extent but knives stand alone much better than OHS. The basic skill set is good for a solid third layer of defense, a counter to disarming attacks, a pesky disarming attack and a feint. Early on it's 4 easy attacks to get through the Ludus. Each of these attacks seemed to be on par with easy attacks from other skill sets. Since the styles are so difficult they also hit much harder, but you always have some easy stuff to train with or chip away at someone while praying for a nice crit.

                    Avros losing the openings would help a lot. Making smash faster might be going too far, but could be worth looking at for a tactical advantage. If possible, making shield strikes not as common with this whole skill set would help, as they seem pretty common in current form.

                    Nelsor seemed painfully slow, to the point of being a danger. I wonder if the people with a few thousand ranks in it would do it over. Could probably devastate PvE though because it does seem potent when there's a skill gap.

                    Padelian is one of the best skill sets in the game to just grind someone into submission and still one of my absolute favorites. Ankle thrust and shield upward (since it gets the stance bonus too) -will- cripple a fighter on a long enough timeline. The defense is so hard to overcome and the shield soaks so well that you can slow a fight to a crawl and just wait for the leg break/mutilation and use your highly effective sap against the openings that will follow.

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                    • #25
                      OHS has 2, MAYBE 3 attacks that are worth anything end game and that's Jab, Slash and Chop. And their only use is for hitting people since this game is unbalanced offense vs defense. The only complaint I can really see involving OHS offense capabilities is their sword sap. I think it's one of the only skill sets in the game that has a difficult attack and doesn't break tier 3 damage unless you are yoked out of your mind. And even then, a single layer of defense [aka helmet] absorbs most of that damage. The stun of OHS Sap is wonky, doesn't trigger much, and is worthless comparable to something available to every sword user [Edgebash].

                      My toon has Phenom Strength, using a boison gladius has the ability to get tier 4 damage with chop, jab, slash against undefended body parts. You rank up the moves high enough to get more crippling crits [which I see happening past rank 101] and you can do some serious output with your layered defense. Yes Spears hit harder, but their holes are pretty grave compared to OHS.

                      OHS has multiple styles which all put out massive damage boosts when used correctly. The idea of saying "OHS isn't OP on it's own, so fix it." seems wrong to me. For a toon that's almost 20 years old, just learn a style and use it in conjunction with other skillsets. Brawling, OHS, Avros, Shields, CMs. It's more painful for newer OHS toons than established but TEC has turned into a long projected game instead of a quick bandit and run. If you want a fast paced, quick to rank skillset, OHS isn't for you.

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                      • #26
                        AIt doesnít seem wrong to learn letís sway staves and Spears for half the sp and be more op? Not needing shields a sub damage and Iím a lot higher than 101. You are completely missing the point. ohs, should do decent damage again Iíll post data after the holiday as opinions are great data isnít opinionated
                        "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                        • #27
                          I'm not missing any points, Kered. My toon has ranks comparable to yours. Probably higher in some regards than you. OHS Damage isn't lacking so bad that it's broken when put into perspective of styles. Don't try to discount points because they don't agree with you. It makes you look like you just want to be lazy and damage boost the worst part of a skillset that is already pretty balanced when compared to the rest of the game.

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                          • #28
                            Has nothing to do with being lazy, your view is your view and opinion, calling me lazy because you have to add a subskill to do damage is flawed. Adding a subskill that leaves openings that does not add a ton of damage minus pard is overlooked. I appericate you feeling Iím lazy but the worst part of the skill set is needing two others to be compared to one that uses two, and the damage of Ohs is subpar
                            "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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                            • #29
                              OHS is fine, sure you won't beat anyone exclusively with it, but it does provide the best defense of all of the one handed weapons as well as a an easy chop, slash and jab to probe with.

                              As far as Nelsor goes, I feel responsible for the horrible openings. When I pitched the idea to Japes, it was for them to keep their massive bonuses, stay slow, but to balance them out by leaving Avros style openings when missing. In my mind, I pictured them as flashy, risky and with a higher crit rate (for blood)Ö instead they just had their damage nerfed, the bonuses removed and added openings.

                              Avros really fell off with the speed changes. The openings weren't a big deal at first because it was faster than nearly every other skillset at that time, so it felt like the openings helped keep the set from being OP. The sad part is that it is supposed to be a dueling skill set, but in game it acts like a support skill set in function. Then the chop mid change happened and smash went from being only usable against whips and knives, to being useless in all 1v1 pvp situations. Rapid strike still remains the hardest hitting easy move in the game, the fumble tradeoff isn't really that much of a penalty. Forced thrust after the damage nerf made it a useless version of kicking slash. Whirling strike is arch of the sky with a penalty for missing. Stab and slash is good (would prefer if you could aim it like you can with knives). Needle strike is great in PvE but horribly unreliable for PvP due to the seemingly random number of hits displayed. Sunrise block is just crossblock except it stops leg strike from axes and clubs and one other low attack. It overlaps with rounding block and overhead with a few attacks thus making it a useless novelty. Pivot lunge is only useful for PvE bandit fights if you're fighting in a group. Flailing defense started off as a weaving stance style self buff, stances became a thing and dueling stance provided the same buff without the need to roll it before every attack. Now it only serves to troll people (or yourself) in group fights or a safe way to make yourself immune to most feints. Flinging disarm is cool, wish it didn't fail on success but no major complaints. As for now, the skill set is largely useless in PvP situations although far from the worst one. You'll pretty much be relying on OHS, rapid strike and trying to bait the other person to go aggressive so that you don't auto lose.

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                              • #30
                                So, basically everything is the same with swords.
                                Ephaelion says to you, "I can just picture in my head the grandmaster brigand locksmith spending days jamming repeatedly one such coffer, thinking 'They will all pay when they open it and find only a sen inside'"

                                Danasei says to you, "What is this reference to a flower other than daisies!? I DO NOT LIKE IT."

                                An urchin with tattered large sacks on his arms runs through the area, clutching a flint-tipped spear yelling, "Rue! Rue! Rue!"

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