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  • My thoughts on Avros; as requested

    Avros Gladius Combat








    We had a great town hall meeting with Senses and I'm so grateful for everything he's done. The same goes for all of the GM staff who've been involved in testing and bouncing off ideas for the upcoming traits revamp.

    Sunrise Block

    A sweeping block from the left-to-right, this maneuver is more effective than simple and crosswise blocks. Knowing this technique enhances the practitioner's defense against all forms of slashing or "horizontal" attacks.
    1. Does not work when out of stance. Stance should auto assume to have this work. Maybe use Knife Quick Draw code?
    2. I do not believe it offers any protection at all as I did not train Sword Simple Block and Sword Cross block until 3.5k ranks in. Since this is one of the benefits of the style make this block "auto-top-layer" so we can see it in action!
    ​Forced Thrust

    The wielder strikes with the middle of his blade, trying to hit the enemy's weapon, but not to knock it aside. The follow-through of this maneuver is a wrist-flip that, if successful, results in a low-strength Slashing Strike that cannot be blocked with the opponent's main weapon. Failure leaves the wielder off-guard and off-balance, so against quick opponents this is not very safe.
    1. Accurate move with low damage. Works great. Gives us a hole to work with against polearms. I wouldn't change this.
    2. Leaves an opening when it misses. Garbage. Strips away all benefits of this move in PVP and end-game PVE. This move will get you killed.
    Rapid Strike

    The wielder makes a chopping strike with exceptional speed and surety. If successful, this maneuver amounts to a very fast, very strong chop. If the strike is blocked or if it misses, however, the chance of losing one's weapon is higher- high enough to be a real possibility. Trading grip for speed can be dangerous.
    1. One of the best moves in the set. An easy move that does great damage to an area that's tougher to defend than to hit. Also very quick. All of this is excellent. Best move in the whole skill set.
    2. Chance of losing your weapon. Honestly this shouldn't even be in the game. Not for Spears Chop or Avros Rapid Strike. Disclaimer: with Lapis' stats this happens for me 1/1,000,000 attacks. Make Sunrise Block have a chance to disarm someone when triggered. That's a WAY more interesting mechanic.

    Flailing Defense

    The wielder begins flailing his gladius in front of him like a bladed baton (still holding it by the handle, of course). The rapidly-moving blade is a distraction to an unskilled opponent, and if the opponent is really inexperienced, the next attack the wielder attempts gets a large bonus. If the opponent is of near-equal or superior skill, however, -his- next attack or block gets the bonus instead. Instructors often use this to demonstrate the value of focus to their pupils.

    I just can't. "Can't what?" I just can't even.
    Why would I feint someone who I outrank? Why not just attack? This is the most disingenuous move in Midlight. It's basically the equivalent to Nelsor's Blade Plant.
    This needs to either be faster, or be a super feint that has a +hit bonus, or needs to persist through one 'reset' (ie: enemy attacks as if to clear a regular feint, but this requires two actions), any combination of these, or all of the above.
    If you wanted to get real fucking crazy you could have this skill train up to the 90-120 range and work a bit like a percentage. At a certain point this has a chance to replace your normal block and gives your a +hit just like CMs recovery. Makes seeing it POP super exciting and rewards high skill.


    Pivot Lunge

    The wielder pivots ninety degrees to the left or right. At the same ime, he stabs in that direction and steps in behind the blade. This maneuver is useful in situations wherein the wielder is surrounded by opponents. This flanking attack allows him to place his target between him and the other attackers, in effect 'retreating' from everyone except the target.
    • Does not work to approach - NOT a lunge. Make it a lunge. But wait... there's more.
    • Difficult skill, therefore easier to block. But the damage.
    • If you are approached by 3 Cineran Marines and 2 Fluvitor Pups are in the room you want to use this. You remain approached to one marine and hope to Ereal the Pups approach you. You are now approached to 1 Cineran Marine and 2 Fluvitor Pups.
    • Does level 5 damage and can be aimed. Doesn't need to hit that hard. See below.
    I would turn this into a lunge with the following gimmick: Let me be the 4th approached person with this move. It could give me a severe defense penalty (such as being able to be approached by 4 enemies), a flat defense penalty, or a "you get one attack after this approach, now get out of here" and I'm removed from the approach. Just spit balling but there's missed potential here. If we're having fun with those ideas trade away some damage. This move doesn't need to hit that hard.


    Strike and Smash
    The wielder slashes diagonally, top to bottom, trying to knock aside the opponent's weapon or draw it down, as he steps forward. With his sword-arm's shoulder, he delivers a body-check. If successful, this attack knocks the opponent back and off-balance, sometimes down. If unsuccessful, the maneuver leaves the wielder off-balance and facing in the wrong direction for a moment.
    • 3 second RT. You use this in PvE and never in PVP. If I saw you use this on me I'd feint you, because you obviously missed because this sucks, and match-end you. Oh wait, I don't need to feint you, because...
    • Leaves an opening. There is no chance this does not leave an opening. I either go aggressive/berserk to use this therefore I leave ALL the openings or I miss and leave an opening. Pick your fail.
    • Does no damage. Yep.
    • Chance to Stun and Prone. Like a mid-hitting Knee Break.
    I guess make it faster and remove the opening? Then it can find a niche if someone has a hole or something. Or to take advantage of a mid feint. If this get over tuned it can be too powerful and that's not good at all. I'm honestly willing to crowd-source this once. Maybe add some damage even if it misses?


    Whirling Strike
    The wielder whirls around, extending his sword arm, and chops with all the accumulated momentum at the opponent. If it fails, the wielder may end up pivoting to one side, leaving his flank unguarded and creating an opening.
    • Level 5 damage. Great.
    • Can be aimed. Yeah!!
    • Cannot be aimed low. Okay...
    • Leaves an opening - sometimes. Move is now useless unless I have you stunned/proned/you're trolling me.

    Stab and Slash
    The wielder is now fast and skilled enough to turn a stab into a slash halfway through without really thinking about it. The wielder drags the blade out at a perfect angle instead of straight, resulting in an additional cutting attack.
    • Good damage. Hits twice. Not slow. Good Crit quality. Bread and butter attack.
    • Can only be aimed high, mid, low. Still good enough. Train this all the way and never look back.

    Flinging Disarm

    Used in situations wherein the wielder's gladius has been grappled by another, this technique allows him to reverse the situation, free his blade, and cause his opponent to lose his grip on his weapon. Through a circular movement, the wielder extricates the gladius and forces the opponent's weapon out of the center line, leaving the opponent vulnerable.
    • Dependent on ranks and stance. Harder to pull off in defensive. Easier in Berserk. A bit counter-intuitive.
    This is just a general rework for me. I think this NEEDs to be automatic. I should do the disarm portion of this at my next action. Something like this:
    1. Trident Gladiator traps my weapon.
    2. Hits me good because I've missed a Strike and Smash and I'm in forever RT.
    3. I Stab and Slash him because it's a great move, but before I do I flinging disarm, he's weaponless, I get 'er good.
    This way if I'm stunned or someone else is on me the weapon trap may still be effective. Me using the 'disarm' before my next move can use the stance auto-assume code. Maybe it only breaks me out of the weapon trap but doesn't disarm the opponent unless I manually FLING <gladius>.


    Needle Strike

    Stepping towards the target sideways to present a narrower target, the Avros practitioner delivers a series of light but very rapid jabs. Lesser opponents are often very intimidated by this maneuver, overwhelmed by the sheer number of attacks. More experienced opponents will have learned to treat the range of jabs as "one" thrust, and block accordingly.
    • Super slow. Just asking to be feinted, or to waste your time.
    • Can reach 4 attacks with 80-over-success (I think?). But so so so many times you get 1-2 attacks. See below.
    • Level 3 damage? That gets blocked by armor.
    • Poor Crit quality. And if you crit you get to "miss your opportunity" doing it.
    For being the mascot move of the whole skill set it's just underwhelming. I trained it up for the spam of critical-red on four attacks that sort of feels good? But whenever it happens I really just wish I'd used something else. I don't have a creative way to make this interesting. It's so boring I hardly think about it. Please help me.

    Dueling Stance

    As maneuvers vary depending on which style a swordsman uses, one must learn how to stand properly in order to execute the attacks. It takes a while for those just learning the stance to properly enter it, but upon becoming a grand master in the stance, one is capable of falling into the stance immediately before striking.
    • It's a stance. Enjoy your bonus. Should auto-assume so you Sunrise Block.

    Avros has no parting or lunging moves. It also has no stance change move. Want to get real crazy?
    Train this baby up and you get to be a dueling master. Your bonus is you get to see when your opponent has changed stances - and to which stance they've changed to. BOOM. Game changer. OP OP. Nerf please.
    But honestly that's something super funky that would really mix up the game.





    Last edited by PhilippeCP; 11-01-2019, 02:44 PM.

  • #2
    Shield Restrictions

    First things first. I don't really mind this. I think if it were to go away one of the ways we could limit the stance-dance would be to change the existing "You are unable to change combat postures at this moment" string to "You are unable to change combat stances at this moment."
    Again I'm not invested in this but I know some folks are. Feel free to discuss my idea but any serious conversation about this should be moved to another thread.

    Openings

    These need to go away. Specifically when I fumble. If I fumble, the penalty is that I didn't execute the maneuver. Think about that's frustrating for you when you miss that stun, or can't follow up on your combo. Now imagine fumbling AND you leave a high opening. Then picture the 3 Cineran Officers who break your shoulders, or the ruffians who auto-aim for the openings. Or the face slash that then stuns you.

    I have lost 103hp because I fumbled.


    No other skill in the game shares this penalty and Avros does not have the upside to justify it. There is no level 6 damage I have access to. No armor penetration. No shield bypass. No.

    I leave an opening when I try to use the most important skills in the skill set. If I want to play as an Avrosian I will use those skills. And what do you do? You go wary/defensive, make me miss, and smash me in the opening.
    Another player should not be able to go into a more defensive stance an an offensive maneuver against me.
    Not to mention I can just plain roll 1-5 and leave an opening.

    A Day in the Life

    I essentially use Avros for Rapid Strike and Stab and Slash. If you're prone I have an interesting attack in whirling slash. If I'm berserk I have Strike and Smash (the mid-hitting-does-no-damage-kneebreak). In PVP I use OHS jab, slash, stab, chop, or shield moves to rotate back to my two Avros moves. It makes for a pretty boring makeup with low damage.
    I don't want Avros to be like other skill sets. I don't want to make it overpowered. I just want it to be average and fun to play.



    Thanks for reading!

    Comment


    • #3
      Some of my initial thoughts:

      I agree with you, Stovall, Senses, and others that the Avros and Nelsor openings should be removed. What should be the balancing tweak to that, to keep it balanced? The Avros and Nelsor damage is higher than Pard, and the defensive capabilities of Pard are not as robust as people think. Should Avros and Nelsor's openings be removed in exchange for a defensive penalty or a slight lowering of damage? Or is it Pard that needs its super sad damage looked at? (An example that was discussed in the WA today: Pard+Pard stacks 30 kills, whereas a Wall+Longarm partnering stacks 50+ kills. That example is with the same exact characters, using different skillsets.)

      I'd love to see more of your thoughts on the above, and on shield restrictions should be tweaked (or not.) Right now, that you can only wield Avros or Nelsor shieldless if you only know one of those styles is... plain... weird.

      Sunrise block - this seems to be working the way other stance blocks do - they don't work unless you're in stance. (Example: Pard low block.) Are you saying all stance blocks should auto-assume stance and trigger?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Elowynn View Post
        Sunrise block - this seems to be working the way other stance blocks do - they don't work unless you're in stance. (Example: Pard low block.) Are you saying all stance blocks should auto-assume stance and trigger?
        Yes. All subskill blocks should auto trigger.

        Avros can see lower damage to Pivot Lunge (which should be utility anyway) and Whirling Strike. Because Stab and Slash is the money maker.

        Comment


        • #5
          A few rough suggestions:

          - Instead of leaving openings, Nelsor and Avros openings could be replaced with a couple seconds of increased roundtime for the user. Avrosian attempts a dramatic move, effs it up, takes a few extra seconds to regain his footing and move back into stance.

          - A damage reduction? Or perhaps fixing Pard damage is the way to go.

          - Instead of disallowing Avros/Nelsor to not wield shields unless only one skill set is known, consider perhaps a cooldown (not a roundtime) before stances can be changed.

          Comment


          • #6
            You are unable to change combat postures at this moment.
            You are unable to change combat stances at this moment.

            I proposed to have that cooldown just like you said.

            In terms of wonky restrictive stuff I agree here that the shield situation seems weird. I can rationalize a cooldown because of stance rhythms.

            Regarding increased roundtimes: that's almost as bad as an opening. Because of being feinted, disarmed, whatever during that increased period. But if I have to pick between this and openings you know I'll choose to move slower.

            Comment


            • #7
              I assume you tested damage avros vs pard I always assumed pard was a lot higher. I hate the openings as they seem the penalize gladii to be on the same level as others. I gave up nelsor due to shield restrictions, my frustration is always the fumble remove it and it’s good enough
              "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kered View Post
                I assume you tested damage avros vs pard I always assumed pard was a lot higher. I hate the openings as they seem the penalize gladii to be on the same level as others. I gave up nelsor due to shield restrictions, my frustration is always the fumble remove it and it’s good enough
                My own experience is more limited than a lot of people, but Avros doesn't seem to have a damage issue, at least not when I'm using it. That's just based on the wound descriptors I inflict, how quickly baddies fall, etc. Far from scientific, I know, but that's not the primary issue with the skillset in my opinion.

                The openings need to be removed or severely reduced, and (in response to Elowynn) I honestly feel that the set needs more work than that to be on the same level as other weapons skills. I don't feel reducing or eliminating the openings would actually require much further adjustment, as I feel the set still wouldn't be the bee's knees without them.

                I do have some thoughts on some of PCP's ideas but I don't have time to verbalize them right now, but I'll attempt to post something on them later tomorrow.
                Originally posted by Mast3rmind
                Celtor and Vladmir combined are like the Legion of Doom. Or maybe the wondertwins, although I'd be worried if Celtor was as furry as Vladmir. *nods sagely*
                Xianna exclaims to you, "And even when unconscious you still attract beautiful women, you lecher!"
                Ravenlark pats you.
                Ravenlark says to you, "I promise not to abuse you in your sleep. Much."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Before going into too much detail, do we know if the overall tone of GMs regarding this discussion is "Let's make glads & other skillsets as good as the obvious Staves" or is it "We're going to reduce Staves to be more on the level of glads & other skillsets"?


                  I find it silly that investing in all 3 sword styles has almost no benefits to it aside from RP.
                  Pros: OHS SP can be used across skillsets. Only need to carry 1 offensive weapon.
                  Cons: Have to carry 2+ shields (+20 lbs) to use all styles. Can't use styles interchangeably. Many of the OHS strengths/weaknesses are ultimately the same across all styles. It's rare that Avros or Nelsor can be used strategically against different opponents. Increased SP cost for many skillsets.

                  It would make more sense to learn Clubs, Whips & Staves for the same SP cost, but to actually be more versatile.




                  Regarding inflicted damage, from what I've seen Avros Whirling Strike hits 5th level damage at about the same rolls-over-success as Pardelian Ankle Thrust. Nelsor Reverse Sky Arch does 5th level damage about 20 points more difficult than Avros Whirling or Pardelian Ankle Thrust.
                  A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                  A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                  A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                  “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dragonus View Post
                    Before going into too much detail, do we know if the overall tone of GMs regarding this discussion is "Let's make glads & other skillsets as good as the obvious Staves" or is it "We're going to reduce Staves to be more on the level of glads & other skillsets"?
                    You'll see in the log with Senses from the most recent Town Hall that fun-to-play was definitely a top concern. He went on to say Staves and Avros were the top two contenders.
                    I want to reiterate that I'm not asking for Avros to get up to where staves is currently. My thoughts on staves aside I'm happy for Avros to become
                    1) average
                    2) fun to play.
                    As to what he and Pranzor had in mind I can't speak to. I don't believe it was discussed, however; we've all heard Pranzor's thoughts about staves several times. I hope Senses has his way.

                    Originally posted by Dragonus View Post
                    It would make more sense to learn Clubs, Whips & Staves for the same SP cost, but to actually be more versatile.
                    This is very true. As the system currently stands I think the only "cross-over" might be Pardelian's Stab and Twist which also effects OHS Stab. But of course nothing is transparent and we only have player testing for this one.
                    Our repeated call for transparency was raised several times at the town hall. Senses seemed to think actual numbers would no be released regarding the New Traits revamp. We pointed out Siddhe had said there would be.

                    Originally posted by Dragonus View Post
                    Regarding inflicted damage, from what I've seen Avros Whirling Strike hits 5th level damage at about the same rolls-over-success as Pardelian Ankle Thrust. Nelsor Reverse Sky Arch does 5th level damage about 20 points more difficult than Avros Whirling or Pardelian Ankle Thrust.
                    To be specific Whirling Strike is Average -> Average (attack vs. block). Pardelian Ankle Thrust is Difficult -> Average.
                    Nelsor Reverse Sky Arch is Average -> Average as well, however; RARCH has a +hit bonus. So I'm going to count that as a win for Nelsor here.

                    To keep talking about this: Ankle Thrust is harder to land but has greater crit potential. Severing Ankle Tendons gets your opponent on the floor and often. Avros Whirling Strike gets a rare stun and sometimes you have them kneeling. Though obviously the damage is greater because of what it's targeting.

                    Neslor RARCH: +hit bonus.
                    Pard Ankle Thrust: Harder to land, More impactful crits.
                    Avros Whirling Strike: Hits hard. BUT LEAVES AN OPENING.

                    Thanks for reading!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Discord
                      You know, one of the other big things I see with Avros, and most of the styles honestly, is they're only like 10-12 skills big, with 6-8 skills usable.
                      In a combat situation I mean. In that light, Nelsor, Avros, and Pard all have as many usable attacks as Archery.
                      In Avros case, [2] of the moves can only be used against someone wielding a weapon. Meaning almost half your style rotation is gone.
                      That would be Forced Thrust and Strike and Smash. Neither can be used against opponents who are disarmed or who don't wield weapons.
                      Excellent observation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So, I was asked by someone on Discard to add my thoughts. Here goes.
                        Avros is the second best style for swords. Nelsor is the worst. Pardelian is the best.

                        I've been using Avros since it was introduced back in 2003. The only change that Avros received, that I recall, was early upon it's release, and it was that needle strike's damage was reduced. Which compared to today's standards on weapon damage, was a severe blow to the skill set.

                        Rapid Strike: Good move. Was nice to see an easy attack in a style. Fast and strong. The fact that you can drop your weapon is no big deal in my opinion, because you have your ACM's and you SHOULD have a shield. So losing one layer of defense is no big deal. The only thing that jacked this move was the change to wooden gladii. God, I hate complainers. They didn't like that they didn't have training weapons. So now they have them. AND SURPRISE SURPRISE. THEY NEVER GET USED. BRING BACK WOODEN GLADII USE FOR HUNTING! One second faster then all one-handed sword moves.

                        Forced Thrust: Decent move. Has a to-hit bonus, but low damage. It has the same damage as the easy moves in the swords skill set. I don't understand why openings were put in in the first place. I'm pretty sure at the time no other skills had moves that left openings when you missed. Nowadays? I think a few do? But I don't know what they are outside of the sword styles. I heard somewhere that Spears has one? I'm not sure. It would be nice if the openings for missing were removed, but that will never happen. The openings should have been removed when shield restrictions were put in place. Same speed as all one-handed sword moves.

                        Whirling Strike: Pretty good move. Good side: Has 5th level damage. Confusing side: Why does this only hit once? When knives whirling strike hits twice. Downside: Leaves openings when you miss. Again, why was this put in, why was this not removed when shield restrictions were put in. They need to be removed, but they won't be. Two seconds slower then sword moves. Does the slowness of this move make up for the damage of this move? No. Because there are plenty of other skills with attacks that do the same, if not more, damage and are faster. PLUS, They don't leave openings when you miss! Compared to Pardelian Ankle Thrust, which pretty much does the same damage, but is two seconds faster. Now granted, ankle thrust aims low, and therefore the amount of HP you can take off is lower. I don't think the extra time makes up for it. Especially when you consider the fact that when these two moves were introduced, vital areas didn't exist.

                        Stab and Slash: Good move. One second faster then Whirling Strike, and therefore one second slower then one-handed sword moves. Hits twice with pretty good damage. Capable of 4th level damage. Should probably be faster or do more damage when comparing to other weapons that have multi-hitting moves. Because those moves are probably faster and do more damage.

                        Needle Strike: Fun move. I like this move. Hits 4 times. Therefore can crit 4 times. Downside: This is the weakest move across swords and all it's styles. And for some strange reason, it doesn't always hit 4 times. Why not? If other multi-hitters can be trained to where they always multi hit, why not needle strike? And isn't there at least one triple-hitting move in this game that is capable of three 5th level damage hits? If not 5th level, then 4th level? Someone confirm please. So for one extra hit, this damage is complete crap? Not to mention the speed of this move. It's two seconds slower then one-handed sword moves. The percentage for hitting 4 times needs to be increased, and the damage needs to be increased, but not too much.

                        Pivot Lunge: Another fun move. It may be hard to land because it's a difficult move, but it does great damage. Capable of 5th level. And it retreats you from any second and third opponents. Downside: Doesn't retreat you, or doesn't always retreat you, when you miss. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe polearm parting moves always retreat you, even when missed. Again, don't know for sure, someone please confirm. If polearm parting moves always retreat you, then Pivot Lunge needs to always retreat you.

                        Strike and Smash: Another move I consider fun. Does no damage, but knocks down if you roll 50 over. Downside: Leaves openings when you miss. By this point, I think you know my thoughts on openings. Ha. Also, Openings when you recover a fumble need to be removed. Come on, that's a bug.

                        Flailing Defense: Confusing move. PhilippeCP was right when he stated: Why would I feint someone I outrank? I don't use it much. I use it for show and/or playing around.

                        Flinging Disarm: Great move. BUT!!!! YOU NEED TO HAVE THE RIGHT SHIELD IN ORDER TO USE IT! WHY!?!?!?!? Talk about unfair. Stupid shield restrictions

                        Sunrise Block: Meh. It's a block. Learn it. The extra defense can't hurt.

                        Dueling Stance: Stupid stances. I've said from the day stances were introduced: WASTE OF CODE.

                        So there you have it. The thoughts from an Avros user with 16 years experience.

                        One-handed swords were destroyed when cycles were introduced, because you are crap unless you know a style. It may be hard to believe, but before cycles there were people who knew swords without a style(Nelsor) and they were good. Swords were destroyed more and the styles were destroyed when shield restrictions were put in. Shield restrictions need to be removed, or lowered somehow. I.E. Allow two styles to be used per shield. Or come up with another way to stop people from cherry picking the best moves from each style. Shield restrictions are a good blow to swords because you can't use a wall shield(like other one handed weapons) unless you know Pardelian (because swords are crap without a style). And in order to learn Pardelian, you are pretty much forced to join the Legio, Which is not the easiest thing to do.(Or is learning Pardelian very easy for everyone except me? Ha.)

                        I know I went off on some tangents, and repeated some information that was already posted, but meh.
                        Can you handle a different opinion?
                        Can you handle the truth?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          All I'm reading is 'Pardelian is OP AF'. Sounds fair to the rest of the weapons.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tender View Post
                            All I'm reading is 'Pardelian is OP AF'. Sounds fair to the rest of the weapons.
                            More like...

                            Swords stand-alone used to be decent. (circa 2000)
                            Styles were introduced and made Swords OP. (Defense penetrations, to-hit bonuses, etc.)
                            Sword styles were nerfed repeatedly.
                            Basically every other skillset got styles (+ some stepping moves), making several of them more "OP"/advantageous than sword styles. Most got styles within the base skillset directly, requiring less overall SP or even additional skill slots.
                            Now, in comparison, the previous sword style nerfs seem like overkill. Maybe some should be overturned.

                            Out of all the sword styles, it's hard to say which one sucks the least. Depends on the situation. PVP vs PVE or Solo vs Group combat. But all of them have moves that either leave openings, leave you laying down or leave you kneeling.
                            A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                            A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                            A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                            “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Raja View Post
                              So, I was asked by someone on Discard to add my thoughts. Here goes.
                              Avros is the second best style for swords. Nelsor is the worst. Pardelian is the best.
                              I love that we dissagree here.

                              Originally posted by Raja
                              Needle Strike: Fun move. I like this move. Hits 4 times. Therefore can crit 4 times. Downside: This is the weakest move across swords and all it's styles. And for some strange reason, it doesn't always hit 4 times. Why not? If other multi-hitters can be trained to where they always multi hit, why not needle strike? And isn't there at least one triple-hitting move in this game that is capable of three 5th level damage hits? If not 5th level, then 4th level? Someone confirm please. So for one extra hit, this damage is complete crap? Not to mention the speed of this move. It's two seconds slower then one-handed sword moves. The percentage for hitting 4 times needs to be increased, and the damage needs to be increased, but not too much.
                              This is great stuff. I was really struggling to come up with anything meaningful here and my knowledge of other sets isn't as deep as yours. Especially regarding knives.
                              I think you've really nailed it on the head. I agree that Needle Strike:
                              • Should be trainable to always hit 4 times.
                              • Have greater damage.
                              • Be faster.
                              Any combination of these improvements would be appreciated.

                              Originally posted by Raja
                              Pivot Lunge: Another fun move. It may be hard to land because it's a difficult move, but it does great damage. Capable of 5th level. And it retreats you from any second and third opponents. Downside: Doesn't retreat you, or doesn't always retreat you, when you miss. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe polearm parting moves always retreat you, even when missed. Again, don't know for sure, someone please confirm. If polearm parting moves always retreat you, then Pivot Lunge needs to always retreat you.
                              You're right! Spears Parting Jab, as an example, will always retreat you regardless of a hit or miss. This is an excellent way to add utility to this move.
                              I have to say though that more often than not when I'm in a big melee (ie. Franlius Docks) the utility I'm looking for is to GET to a mob, not to LEAVE a mob behind. I'm using Shield Push Back to free myself up (so I don't trigger the fatigue drain of CMs Fall Back) to then approach the target we're all focusing.
                              I am however guilty of spamming Pivot Lunge to put that Cineran Marine on Elowynn and not on me. Nyah nyah.

                              Originally posted by Raja
                              ...Also, Openings when you recover a fumble need to be removed. Come on, that's a bug....
                              Correct. And in my opinion this is why Avros sits below Nelsor, and many other skill sets in the game. Especially when you consider things like 'how much fun is this to play?'

                              Originally posted by Tender View Post
                              All I'm reading is 'Pardelian is OP AF'. Sounds fair to the rest of the weapons.
                              Even if that's how you feel that isn't the point of this thread.


                              Going back up to your thoughts about Whirling Strike vs Stab and Slash. The other difference I see between the two is that Stab and Slash can only be aimed high, mid, and low whereas whirling strike can be targeted at the neck. In situations where I have a guaranteed hit but only one round time to do it in I find myself going for that devastating cut to the neck. Otherwise I'm hitting cuts and punctures to the hands or arms.

                              Great thoughts! Thanks for taking the time.

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