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A Sad Afair - A Whipper's Queary

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  • A Sad Afair - A Whipper's Queary

    I've a question. Whips is a purely offencive weapon. So why are they so sucky unless you have great strength?

    Yes, they do more damage than some weapons you can name, but look at them from this point of view.

    1) There are 3 easy subskills. Fast coil, wich is not even worth learning. Sky Circle, that is nothing but a setup for an attack (wich, at rank 70 in basics and 1 in sky circle you have a 5 in agressive stance and 23 in a normal one), and to even learn Flogging the bull you have to train 40 ranks in basics, and 40 in a difficult move that doesn't even hit 4 times out or 5 even if you roll over your success.

    2) The traps are absolutely useless unless you have better strength than your oponent. So unless your fighting a knifer, or maybe an archer, myour probably not going to see any resaults whatsoever from any of the trap moves wich people say makes Whips worth it. And they are all blocked easily. Gee what a great thing it is to be abel to trap....people weaker than you....that have no blocks.

    3) One of the traps (Waste Trap) is useless. Ankle trap is FAR better in many ways. The target ends up "prone" with both, but waoist trap brings them to thier knees, so a cestus user or a nelsor user would not mind at all. An anke trap however, puts them on thier back. Why even HAVE Waist trap? Its useless.

    4) The only two hard to block/dodge moves require a "setup move" to use. So not only does it take twice as long to use, but you also add in a fumble factor. Even if you recover, you have to redo the setup move before you can spin an attack off of it.

    5) Face strike is an Average move, it does average damage...and you have to retreat to use it. Engage in a fight with a cestus user and retreat to use facestrike. So how did you d....what? Your dead? Yeah, that tumble lunge hurts.

    6) Prereqs. To learn half the moves you have to be rank 20 in one ore more other subs. You have to train triplecrack, a useless move, to rank 20 (along with 20 in simple sttrike) to learn Lykatos' Scourge. You need to train to rank 40 in simple strike, and 40 ranks in a usless difficult skill (prescise snap) just to learn Flogging the bull...wich is usually useless.

    7) You get to use a short whip. Thats it. Want a different kind? alter one with RPS. Want a different quality? Buy a custom one with RPS.

    8) To counter for all these huge penalties to learning it, you don't have any blocks at all. Just another penalty to add to the pile.

    9) Axe loosening toss works against Slow Entangle. How the hell can you use the hook of an axe blade to "swing it around" a half length of whip wrapped around it??? That has to be the most ooc combat mechanic I can think of besides impaling someone in practice and doing no damage.

    10) Whips are by far, not quick weapons. So you have to have decent speed. You have no weapon defence, so you have to have great agility. You can't use any traps unless you have awesome strength, so you've got to have that too. So you need at least very good speed, agility, and strength just to be an average whipper. A knife rolls for speed. A spearsman rolls for strength. A whipper has to roll for 3, or be a very crappy fighter.




    So I'm asking a few question, not whining, and my question is this:

    If whips is suppose to be the "purely offencive" weapon, why can it be bested by every other weapon out there with half the work, and slightly better strength.

    Why does it have sooooo many penalties applied to it, with nothing in its favor? Why does it have little to no "pros" to balance the mass amounts of "cons"?

    And finally: Why are people going to flame me for this, when it is so obvious I have a very good point?

    Because "There are more important things for GMs to address than this" Bull, don't give me that crap.

    Because "You just got 5 new moves! You don't need anymore!"? Flick strike does minimal damage and can't be aimed. There is no pro. Flogging the bull requires 120 ranks before you can learn it. And it has to be aimed, and then the following attack has to be aimed at the same place. But most whip attacks can't be aimed. Go figure. Sky Circle slash and Sky Circle rake both require you to use a Sky circle first, plus rake is a difficult move. And there is no point in ever training sky circle past rank 10. Its just there to make it harder to rank up. Just another con.

    Yeah, I was estatic to get the new moves, but you have to understand. Whippers couldn't even get a full move cycle without getting cycling penalties untill they came out, so we HAD to have them to fight humanoids. Everyone else had plenty to gave a more than full cycle.

    Thats about it. Flame me (I know you will), criticize, or catch me off guard and actually offer up a posative comment.
    Originally posted by Blackening
    As strange as it feels to say this, Nookie wins this thread.
    Originally posted by Max Powers
    The mighty Nookie reveals the secrets of TEC greatness!

  • #2
    I'd have to agree.

    Whips are in a downtrodden state and should be upgraded to put them at least on par with other weapons, if not at a slight advantage because they are 'purely offensive'.

    Comment


    • #3
      1) There are 3 easy subskills. Fast coil, wich is not even worth learning. Sky Circle, that is nothing but a setup for an attack (wich, at rank 70 in basics and 1 in sky circle you have a 5 in agressive stance and 23 in a normal one), and to even learn Flogging the bull you have to train 40 ranks in basics, and 40 in a difficult move that doesn't even hit 4 times out or 5 even if you roll over your success.
      Fast coil gives a decent bonus to the next entangling attack, somewhat making up for the fact that all entangles are average moves, but not quite.

      Precise snap, I'll agree, is underpowered for what it is. Those 3 out of 4 times you miss though, add a significant penalty to your opponents next attack and it's unaffected by a repeat attack penalty unless you actually connect. The stun time on connection could be made longer, or the move be made more difficult to block.

      Flogging the bull is an easy feint. 'nuff said. I like it.




      2) The traps are absolutely useless unless you have better strength than your oponent. So unless your fighting a knifer, or maybe an archer, myour probably not going to see any resaults whatsoever from any of the trap moves wich people say makes Whips worth it. And they are all blocked easily. Gee what a great thing it is to be abel to trap....people weaker than you....that have no blocks.
      Not entirely true. High speed could result in being able to entangle and yank before your opponent gets a chance to free themselves. Strength though, does help alot and needs to be decent. I recommend good or better at least.

      The traps are not -all- blocked easily, but for the most part I will agree they should be more difficult to avoid. There are traps though, that are worthwhile.

      3) One of the traps (Waste Trap) is useless. Ankle trap is FAR better in many ways. The target ends up "prone" with both, but waoist trap brings them to thier knees, so a cestus user or a nelsor user would not mind at all. An anke trap however, puts them on thier back. Why even HAVE Waist trap? Its useless.
      Waist trap has it's place. After yanking your opponent down to their knees, the trap is still in place. If they stand before freeing themselves you can simply yank them down again. Useful in team situations, but yes, only if you have decent strength or speed.




      4) The only two hard to block/dodge moves require a "setup move" to use. So not only does it take twice as long to use, but you also add in a fumble factor. Even if you recover, you have to redo the setup move before you can spin an attack off of it.
      They aren't the only two 'hard to block' moves. They are perhaps a bit weak for the time they take to execute, and the ease at which an opponent can simply switch defensive once the setup is seen and then back to aggressive/normal after the attack is executed. That's my only critque there, I like those moves a fair bit.

      5) Face strike is an Average move, it does average damage...and you have to retreat to use it. Engage in a fight with a cestus user and retreat to use facestrike. So how did you d....what? Your dead? Yeah, that tumble lunge hurts
      Facestrike actually does pretty sad damage, and is a second slower than other whip moves. Not too hard to avoid/block and must retreat to use. I have not discovered any 'extra effect' of using facestrike. Whips worst move by far, I agree with you.



      6) Prereqs. To learn half the moves you have to be rank 20 in one ore more other subs. You have to train triplecrack, a useless move, to rank 20 (along with 20 in simple sttrike) to learn Lykatos' Scourge. You need to train to rank 40 in simple strike, and 40 ranks in a usless difficult skill (prescise snap) just to learn Flogging the bull...wich is usually useless
      I like the prereqs, it's one of those things that makes whips special. Triplecrack is not useless, it gives a decent bonus to the next striking attack, precise snap and flogging the bull I've already discussed. I disagree with you completely in this paragraph.


      7) You get to use a short whip. Thats it. Want a different kind? alter one with RPS. Want a different quality? Buy a custom one with RPS.
      I agree with you heartily here. Not even with a custom whip can damage be increased. Nothing can increase a whips damage capacity. Ever. Nothing. A custom whip will get you a +4 to success and a pretty description. Take that 2000 rolepoints and spend it on agility instead. You'll thank yourself. Whips, as far as I know, are the only weapon that has this penalty.

      8) To counter for all these huge penalties to learning it, you don't have any blocks at all. Just another penalty to add to the pile.
      You can wield a shield and learn acm. Two layers of defence as any polearm wielder has. Granted there are alot of holes, but I've never seen this as an area requiring attention.

      9) Axe loosening toss works against Slow Entangle. How the hell can you use the hook of an axe blade to "swing it around" a half length of whip wrapped around it??? That has to be the most ooc combat mechanic I can think of besides impaling someone in practice and doing no damage.
      Imagine it as simply twisting the whip right out of your hands, which loosens the entangle to the point of uselessness. Here I'd say just apply some suspension of disbelief.

      10) Whips are by far, not quick weapons. So you have to have decent speed. You have no weapon defence, so you have to have great agility. You can't use any traps unless you have awesome strength, so you've got to have that too. So you need at least very good speed, agility, and strength just to be an average whipper. A knife rolls for speed. A spearsman rolls for strength. A whipper has to roll for 3, or be a very crappy fighter.
      I've made it pretty far on what most would call 'crap' stats. Strength is the only one I'd list as truly a necessity. The others help. Agility and speed affect all weapons in a major way, whips are no different in that respect.


      Now to your questions.

      If whips is suppose to be the "purely offencive" weapon, why can it be bested by every other weapon out there with half the work, and slightly better strength.
      The strength of whips is truly in a team combat situation, but 'half the work' is a very large hyperbole. One on one though, whips may still be a little low. Better block penetration would go a long way to making a decent improvement. The short answer to your question would be 'because many of the moves are of a high difficulty without the damage or block penetration to make up for it'.


      Why does it have sooooo many penalties applied to it, with nothing in its favor? Why does it have little to no "pros" to balance the mass amounts of "cons"?
      There are many things in it's favor, and many 'pros',but I will grant you the balance is a little on the other side still. Before the rank bonus compression, training could eventually even things out a bit, but since this is nolonger an option attack-block relationships could probably use some looking at.

      And finally: Why are people going to flame me for this, when it is so obvious I have a very good point?
      I'm not going to flame you, you have some decent points, but a few misconceptions which I hope I corrected.

      Flick strike does minimal damage and can't be aimed. There is no pro. Flogging the bull requires 120 ranks before you can learn it. And it has to be aimed, and then the following attack has to be aimed at the same place. But most whip attacks can't be aimed. Go figure. Sky Circle slash and Sky Circle rake both require you to use a Sky circle first, plus rake is a difficult move. And there is no point in ever training sky circle past rank 10. Its just there to make it harder to rank up. Just another con.
      Flick strike is actually decently hard to block and is the only whip move that cannot be aimed. Your perception that most of them can't comes from the fact that most -do- aim automatically. Facestrike, precise snap, and sky circle slash aim high by default. Sky circle rake aims low by default. Scourge can be aimed mid or high, strike aims anywhere. Auto-aiming high and low -is- a pro.

      There is a point in training sky circle past 10. The success of a sky circle gives a proportional bonus to the following attack, to be able to pull it off with a 5 in normal or wary stance allows for powerful maneuvers to have a decent chance of hitting from a strong defensive position.

      Normally this kind of advice I'd give out IC to stable members, but you seemed quite frustrated. Like I said, you still touched on some issue that remain, but there are more positives than you thought.

      I hope I've helped.
      LOTS of people in the US are mentally retarded - Miriam

      Iridine's finest gladiator stable:
      http://xfuj.com/tec/cl/

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm not here to flame you, but a lot of the things you brought up are true with just about every weapon... so don't feel targeted. Next whips are fine imho except for the fact that besides axes they are the only weapon with a weapon entangle that can be blocked or dodged. With crap strength you can't do damage with a lot of the weapons my brawler can barely do a deep puncture using iron cestii while there are others who can do severes using bronze but hey thats the luck of the draw (well of course unless they rerolled, then they should have their stats nerfed). Whips have advantages that outweight the disadvantages and are fine for the most part.

        Comment


        • #5
          *Cheers* Nookie420

          Finally someone takin the time to point this out. Letrus Abbot made some good points as well but did not consider the aiming issue as well as you possible could have. As it stands now the aimable whip moves are strike which is whereever you aim it. Scourge with is high and mid and thats the end....

          Ok asuming a new whipper does not have rank 40 in basics and psnap which is a difficult move to learn at 9 sp a rank (talk about this move later) to learn flogging the bull the lack of aimable attacks creats a very large problem. How exactly do you expose someones weak points.

          (1) option one use a move targetting to that area ok weaklow has weak low defenses so i will use sky circle indicating to him that im either gonna rake or slash him possibly givin him time to go defesive or use other techinques to mess me up.

          (2) Option two i have you my other low techinque, yes i said my other low techinque because their are only two I can aim strike low.

          Now I used low as an example I do know that their are 3 attacks that can be aimed mid and high but 3 attacks.... which does not really give you much opportunity to hit someone with an average attack someones weak area of defense.

          That being said Flogging the bull is almost essential to a whip user as well as fall back so you enable yourself a chance to use it quickly. Also very good timing because four outta 5 times they will attack before you get yours in after the feint. Good for two on one combat though.

          Ok maybe it is just me as well but some of the whip moves are really in need of work for one example flick strike which is a harder to block move well at least harder than strike, but it is an average difficulty move with the damage of an easy move, anyone see a problem here? Another example is Psnap probably the most annoyin attack in game... i mean misses 4/5 tries and when it actually does hit it might take off 1-5 health points and it is a difficult attack... a difficult attack that takes off less hp than most easy attacks for other weapons. Ok some of you are gonna throw this at me it stunns... well yes it does stunn for exactly 1 second yay, even useless when fighting in a group of two. Also I am sure their are some of you guys under the impression that it is unblockable... bull, shield high and swaying dodge this move is usless to train except to learn flogging the bull...

          Now Nookie420 made a really good point with the strength comment my whipper is not strong at all rendering all of his traps usless unless he is fighting a wimp... thats ok i new he was not strong when i made him so i figured the attacks were the way to go, but I also though ok average attacks will do average damage at any rate, but it seems that was untrue as even a difficult attack does less damage than a easy attack for some other weapons.

          Another point I wanted to make is the holes in defense im not gonna list them but their are a good number of them... Would it be that unrealistic to have a whip haft block... the haft is like 9 inches long is it that unrealistic, or if not the half, what about the butt of the haft, surely it isn't much thinner than the butt of a spear, is shorter you would almost think it would be easier to do..


          Whip haft block

          A man in a black hooded cloak block tips his short whip half to the side blocking you strike.

          Dificulty : average

          Blocks: maybe weapon strike moves, (this is not so far fetched since it would be the same as quillition block which does same) but if so blocks mid range...


          Whip butt block

          A man in a black hooded cloak quickly turns the half or his whip upside down blocking your attack with the butt of his whips half.

          Difficulty : easy

          Blocks : High attacks.


          P.S wow that is the most time I have ever spent makin a post... anyhow flame away...

          Comment


          • #6
            Whips are more offensive, thier crits are killer. If you have decent speed, or decent dex you can make up for the lack of decent strength.

            If you want a weapon that truelly doesnt matter if yer strong or not wield a knife.
            CENSORED

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tempest
              Whips are more offensive, thier crits are killer. If you have decent speed, or decent dex you can make up for the lack of decent strength.

              If you want a weapon that truelly doesnt matter if yer strong or not wield a knife.
              lol what they are saying applies to every weapon even knives so complaining about bad strenght isn't going to win them any points in my book, since i have that same problem with all of my characters with all their weapons.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by lykatos
                lol what they are saying applies to every weapon even knives so complaining about bad strenght isn't going to win them any points in my book, since i have that same problem with all of my characters with all their weapons.
                What I said
                Now Nookie420 made a really good point with the strength comment my whipper is not strong at all rendering all of his traps usless unless he is fighting a wimp... thats ok i new he was not strong when i made him so i figured the attacks were the way to go, but I also though ok average attacks will do average damage at any rate, but it seems that was untrue as even a difficult attack does less damage than a easy attack for some other weapons.
                ok my post was probably to long for you to read it all, theirs the section on that, I was not complaining, I had to learn whips after I already had the char like the statement said I realised he did not have good strength before I made him a whipper. Its not a strength complaint I was just stateing that if your character is not strong entangles are not a good idea, whips havin 5 different entangleing moves makes them have just a bit more of an effect by a weak strength attribute, 5 times as much actually.

                Comment


                • #9
                  whips are terrifyingly aggressive. So, they do great damage. However..and yes, there's always a however with me..What i find GAY as hell is that they can block with a skinny arsed whip handle.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Addreama
                    whips are terrifyingly aggressive. So, they do great damage. However..and yes, there's always a however with me..What i find GAY as hell is that they can block with a skinny arsed whip handle.
                    What, where do I learn these blocks.... please please tell me.

                    Edited :
                    Correct me if im wrong are are whip halfs not the same width as a spear or stave ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There are no whip blocks.

                      If a tin knife can block a stave, I'm sure that you can stretch your imagination far enough to imagine that a whip handle can block something too.
                      Spectatum veniunt, veniunt spectentur ut ipsae.

                      -- Ovid

                      <Iason thinks aloud: HELP!>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So anyone else remember the time a whipper with slightly over 400 ranks (417) beat the hell out of a staver with slightly under 600 ranks (596) in the games?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Whips are all about strategy.


                          Love is not lost, it dies like all things do...Buried in the backyard where a lone dove cries and waits for broken wings to heal...to fly again someday.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Vote NO for whip blocks!
                            spE4Ce pREtZEL01: how do I end up being a therapist for all my old gfs
                            OMGIMJ4KE: comes with the territory
                            OMGIMJ4KE: same thing happened with mine
                            spE4Ce pREtZEL01: not that I mind, I love 'em all
                            spE4Ce pREtZEL01: collect 'em, trade 'em, show 'em to your friends
                            OMGIMJ4KE: gotta catch em all
                            spE4Ce pREtZEL01: Wendymon, I choose you! Bipolar attack!
                            OMGIMJ4KE: "Im happy! Now im sad!"
                            OMGIMJ4KE: Monster is confused!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Marnevel
                              So anyone else remember the time a whipper with slightly over 400 ranks (417) beat the hell out of a staver with slightly under 600 ranks (596) in the games?
                              Valerie versus Dalos.

                              'nuff said.

                              Also, anyone who actually uses a whip IRL, knows that the handle is made of wrapped leather. No wood. Especially not the short whips. (Then again, I'm referring to the bullwhip). Its incredibly flexible. That allows your wrist to arc in motion, but prevents it from blocking anything.

                              Besides. You know how bulky it is to block something while carrying an 11-16 foot weapon thats as flimsy as all hell? ;p
                              Konoha ga Renge wa Nido Saku ~ The Lotus of Konoha, Blossoms Twice



                              Kevin responds from afar, "hard to resist those milfs...mothers i'd like to fork."

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