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  • @ Feedback on Whips

    @feedback Re-Whips Nerf

    Recently although i cannot pinpoint exactly when the nerf took place, I noticed that certain whip moves have been much harder to hit with. I am unable to point out the exact time when it occurred because I don’t get to play every day and there was no release by any gm about the actual whip nerf that took place.

    Some examples of the weapon skills that appear to have been nerfed are, ankle trap, entangle, Sky Circle Rake, Sky & Circle Slash. Now I realize that this argument will for the most part fall on deaf ears because the majority of the player base does not use whips and in general will see the nerf as a positive because the only way they are affected by it is now they will be able to fight whippers easier.

    The reasoning as I understand it are because one, or several persons complained about this moves being able to hit them easier than they believed they should be hit by these moves. And generally that might be a fair argument if you are comparing a fighter with less ranks that you have in your main weapon. However there are several points to consider about whips and why they received a "slight bonus" to certain moves.

    Quick Overview of positives and negatives of whips skillset pre the nerf;


    ***Positives***
    -Higher damage (generally equivalent to retalq weapons)
    -Multi hit skills
    -Slight bonuses to certain moves ei; Ankle Trap, Entangle, Sky Circle Rake, and Sky Circle Slash


    ***Negatives***
    -Very difficult skillset to learn all attacks being average difficulty or harder
    -Many pre-requisites
    -Ariston only teaches to rank 70
    -No Blocks
    -Not obtainable via character gen chargen
    -No defense possible for weapon strike manouvers


    Now looking at these positives and negatives generally the positives outweigh the negatives. And i know the first thing people will mention is the negatives list is not only the list for whips, knifes are only taught to rank 50 and certain spear moves are only taught to rank 50 as well. That being said, both weapon skillsets don’t have the same list of negatives and i am not comparing which skillset has the most negatives versus positives because the is an impossible an irrelevant argument.


    The reason I am comparing the positives and negatives to whips is to assist people in understanding why the bonus's were there in the first place.

    After testing the nerfs several times against several different characters and NPC's i've noted that one of the positives on the positive list has just been removed.... the slight bonuses to perform certain moves has been taken away. This may not appear to be a huge deal as weapon skills get nerfs all the time, however when you take away the slight bonus, the other two positives become irrelevant as well being as how if you cannot hit someone at all damage and multi hit sets don’t matter.

    This skillset was semi balances as it was and has just become essentially useless as a skillset. Now as it appears i am just complaining because its the skillset my main character uses (partially true because i wouldn’t have noticed the nerf if I didn’t have a character that used the skillset) I am actually complaining about this turning into a useless skillset in the game. I can always convert to another main character or change skillsets and that isn’t a huge deal even though i spent more than 4 years training up the whipper.

    I spoke with a GM briefly about this attempting to find out why this nerf occurred and if there was a plan to remove all bonus's to skillsets so that all skillsets could be balanced out. Even though whips will always have additional negatives such as being the only skillset without blocks (which is why i assumed initially they had a slighty bonus to attacks)

    As this conversation went through i provided an example of another skillset with "attack bonuses" like for example the brawling skillset having a 40 success bonus to punch, and a 20 success bonus to kick. Now i understand these moves have a bonus because they are "natural moves" and that was added to provide realism.

    The argument for this was provided to me as, well it would be considerably easier to punch someone than whip someone, which makes PERFECT sense. Yes it would be easier to punch and kick someone which is why i believe the gms made them an easy move (5 sp to learn in first skillslot) versus an average move (7 sp per skillslot which is what the easiest whip attack move is)

    That being said, that doesn’t account to why there is a 40 success bonus to punch someone, it is a natural skill to do, that being said its the most natural move to block i would think so i dont understand why there is a 40 success to land punch and 20 to land kick....

    That being said, i also assumed the reasoning behind the bonuses to whipping was because the nature of a whip which made as much sense as i could put together anyhow. If you look at a whip when a whip is snapped it makes a "crack" sound. That "crack" sound is actually a mini sonic boom.

    Sonic booms occurred when an object moves at a speed greater than the speed of sound (750 miles per hour). Now I am basing this on the assumption that most humans cannot dodge or move 750 miles per hour, but I assume.... the bonus's whips received was to add a bit of realism to how difficult it would actually be to dodge the strike of a whip.

    With the aforementioned information in place, I really don’t understand why this nerf occurred or at least to the level that it did. 100% of the bonus's appear to have been removed and now its nearly impossible to land any of the moves on a character with 50 ranks in acms or shields even when you have far greater than that many ranks in the whip moves...

    My question is was this intentional ? or was it originally intended to be slightly nerfed and there was a "coding error" I think its really unfortunate if this is the intent as there are really only 2 or 3 teir 5 whippers in the entire playerbase as it is it'd be a shame for nobody at all to utilize the weapon skill at all and for it to turn into a dead skill because really as it is with this last nerf, whips are useless to wield right now

    Thanks for reading

  • #2
    the success to punch is bigger than 40. punch also does faint wounds at rank 150, where at rank 1 crake can do severe cuts.


    Several sets have WORSE defense than whips do. Pankration, staves, spears, tridents, and two-handed axes for instance. Brawling has either a.) identical defense to whips, or b.) the worst defense in the game. depending on how you play a brawler.

    only 1 move in the entire set had it's bonus to hit lowered. And it wasn't even a bonsu to hit, it's just blocked differently than it used to be.

    so lets review

    ***Positives***
    -Higher damage : Yep.
    -Multi hit skills - Yep. Though admittedly hard to hit with. And somewhat shared with others.
    -Slight bonus to certain moves. Slight my ass. HUGE bonus to 2 moves, and a decent bonus to a third.


    ***Negatives***
    -Very difficult skillset to learn It took me 3 weeks to be able to perform every move in the set.
    -Many pre-requisites - Lower prereqs than Pankration, or two handed axes. about equivelent with Avros, and Pardelian.
    -Ariston only teaches to rank 70 - You can be in the top 10%ile with only 70 ranks in all but 2 skills (basics, and stance).
    -No Blocks - Shield + CMs.
    -Not obtainable via character gen chargen - neither is 2ha, pankration, tridents(with one exception) cestus, or any of the sword styles.
    -No defense possible for weapon strike maneuvers - This is untrue.


    Whips may actually have been nerfed too hard, not including the grapples problem which needs fixed, and was obviously a bug and affects 8 sets. But I don't see the validity in what you are saying specifically.

    Originally posted by VinianQuartz
    HAIL CULEXUS

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Armataan View Post

      ***Positives***
      -Higher damage : Yep.
      -Multi hit skills - Yep. Though admittedly hard to hit with. And somewhat shared with others.
      -Slight bonus to certain moves. Slight my ass. HUGE bonus to 2 moves, and a decent bonus to a third.
      The bonus's for those moves isn't really applicable anymore its removed

      Originally posted by Armataan View Post

      ***Negatives***
      -Very difficult skillset to learn It took me 3 weeks to be able to perform every move in the set.
      Difficult to learn and actually be effective with, not hit a dummy with

      Originally posted by Armataan View Post

      -Many pre-requisites - Lower prereqs than Pankration, or two handed axes. about equivelent with Avros, and Pardelian.
      Right below that in my post i point out that some of these negatives are shared with other skillsets, none of them are exclusive except the skillset having no blocks

      Originally posted by Armataan View Post
      -Ariston only teaches to rank 70 - You can be in the top 10%ile with only 70 ranks in all but 2 skills (basics, and stance).
      very true you can be a decent player with 70 in all moves and rankin basics

      Originally posted by Armataan View Post
      -No Blocks - Shield + CMs.
      I was pointing out that the skillset whips has no blocks, which is exclusive to whips, every other skillset has blocks except whips. Anyone can learn shields and cms as a skillset

      Originally posted by Armataan View Post
      -Not obtainable via character gen chargen - neither is 2ha, pankration, tridents(with one exception) cestus, or any of the sword styles.
      Again, in my post i advised these are not exclusive negatives, i was merely tally'n them up for everyone to see

      Originally posted by Armataan View Post
      -No defense possible for weapon strike maneuvers - This is untrue.
      i wouldn't really call high basic's ranks making it harder for weapon strike you a block...

      And how can no defenses be worse than any defense in a skillset... im confused with that statement

      Comment


      • #4
        These are the effective defensive layers for each weapon:

        Swords:
        CMs
        Shields
        OHS
        Avros
        Pardelian
        Nelsor (This one doesn't really count.)

        Knives:
        CMs
        Shields
        knives

        1 handed axes:
        CMs
        Shields
        1ha

        1 handed crushing:
        CMs
        Shields
        1hc

        Cestus:
        Cestus
        CMs
        alternatively, you can use 1/2 of cestus attacks, 1/2 of cestus blocks, and get shields too.

        Whips:
        CMs
        Shields

        Brawling:
        CMs
        Brawling (Or, instead of brawling, shields and you lose 3 moves.)

        Pankration:
        CMs
        Pankration
        Brawling

        Tridents:
        Tridents
        CMs

        Spears:
        Spears (or, alternatively, shields, and 1/2 of the attacks)
        CMs

        Staves:
        staves
        CMs

        2ha:
        2ha (hahaha)
        cms


        Whips, as you can see, has a more effective set of defenses than: 2ha, staves, spears, tridents, pankration, and brawling.

        As for being good:

        91 basics
        91 stance
        70 crake
        70 cslash
        70 precise snap
        10 scourge
        the prereqs for these moves
        and great cms, and shields,

        is enough to dominate basically 98% of the game's characters.

        Or at least, it was before the 'nerf'. I will have to test it to get a real feel for the change, rather than the very brief test I did. But while crake got hit, and your traps, none of your other moves have changed.

        Originally posted by VinianQuartz
        HAIL CULEXUS

        Comment


        • #5
          As a whipper with far far far far greater than those ranks you posted, I can safely say the ranks you listed there isn't near enough to defeat 98% of the playerbase.

          And I'm not saying a whip character cannot defend well, with shields and acms they do pretty welll. I merely mentioned that the skillset whips has no defensive manuevers. Any skillset can use acms and shields as you mentioned in your post.

          To say that whips have better defense than any other set is a bit much tho, all of them can use acms and shields, some just loose a some accessible moves in the process.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by zeldaiscool View Post
            And I'm not saying a whip character cannot defend well, with shields and acms they do pretty welll. I merely mentioned that the skillset whips has no defensive manuevers. Any skillset can use acms and shields as you mentioned in your post.

            To say that whips have better defense than any other set is a bit much tho, all of them can use acms and shields, some just loose a some accessible moves in the process.
            polearms and pankration cannot use shields. And shields are a better defensive layer than either of those provide.

            If wielding a shield Pankration can't perform a single move, brawling loses access to their blocks, and all hand maneuvers. 2ha cannot perform a single attack but 'attack', spears can perform only 5 of their attacks, staves can perform none, tridents can perform only jabs.

            Originally posted by VinianQuartz
            HAIL CULEXUS

            Comment


            • #7
              It was nerfed because a certain character was KO'd by whips. The player of that character then vowed that the next thing to be nerfed would be whips. Not immediately the next thing, but one of the next things to get rocked was whips by senior Kritios.

              Don't try to argue logic on this one guys.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Armataan View Post
                polearms and pankration cannot use shields. And shields are a better defensive layer than either of those provide.

                If wielding a shield Pankration can't perform a single move, brawling loses access to their blocks, and all hand maneuvers. 2ha cannot perform a single attack but 'attack', spears can perform only 5 of their attacks, staves can perform none, tridents can perform only jabs.
                Never tested wielding a shield with my stave but I know we got 4 one handed attacks. I killed a thug yesterday while holding a lantern hehe.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You ve failed me once again star scream.
                  CENSORED

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If a spearman takes a shield he looses 2 of his blocks. Thus he will have only simple block and CM + shields. But he will be able to perform only 5 moves including 'attack'. Now talk about fairness.

                    Thus i agree with Armataan that whips have relatively good defensive capability when compared to polearms.

                    Sonic boom? That speed is acquired on the tip of the whip. Until tip gets to crack there is plenty of time to avoid the hit. - just my two cents.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I need to additionally note that every -major- point that Zelda makes is horribly wrong and should not be taken seriously.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You sure spears simple block works with a shield wielded? pretty sure no spear blocks work one handed.
                        Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
                        I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

                        You mean it's true?
                        Originally posted by Phwoar
                        Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
                        Originally posted by Elowynn
                        Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rupert View Post
                          You sure spears simple block works with a shield wielded? pretty sure no spear blocks work one handed.
                          This is a correct post. You lose all blocks with spears unless you're wielded in both hands.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Really. Somehow i mistook.
                            I apologise for spreading confusion.

                            Comment

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