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  • Dual wielding

    Introduce two new combat maneuvers.

    - Off-handed defense: Allows a character to utilize any one handed weapon blocks they have access to on a weapon wielded in their off hand. With 90 ranks in Off-handed defense, a person is capable of using 33% (Third layer) of the rank bonus available to the weapons blocks.

    -Off-handed offense: Allows a character to utilize any one handed weapon attack they have access to on a weapon wielded in their off hand. With 90 ranks in off-handed offense, a character can utilize 100% of rank bonus available in off-handed weapons attacks.

    Have both of these skills scale like Arrow awareness, where it brings a certain portion of your defensive/offensive RB in for each rank. Have all round times for all moves remain the same while dual wielding.

    With this, introduce a command that allows you to swap the contents of your hands for the purpose of utilizing a primary weapon over a secondary.

    All single handed weapons would be usable and inter changeable in combat scenario's, the only requirement being that you know how to do the skills you are attempting to use. This includes two of the same weapon, provided the character has both combat maneuvers.
    Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
    I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

    You mean it's true?
    Originally posted by Phwoar
    Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
    Originally posted by Elowynn
    Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

  • #2
    Dual Wielding

    This sounds like it would be amazing! and the way you presented it sounds balanced also. However, I would make it a passive skill to swap weapon contents with a chance to fumble or drop 1 or both weapons in the process. Lets face it. Swapping weapons from hand to hand mid fight wouldn't be easy and could look really fancy.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think something like this would be of great benefit to all one handed weapons. If you're using two of the same weapon, all it does is give you your weapon blocks at an additional 33%, and at a reasonable SP cost compared to taking on shields. You're giving up that complete third layer of defense, though.

      For the top tiers, there's combinations of weapons for strategy. Any combination of Axe, knife, gladius, whip, and club. You COULD open it up to one handed attacks with two handed weapons as well, maybe make it a different combat maneuver. Combat maneuvers would be the universal third skillset shared for the most part, and with the RP cost hike in skill slots smaller builds seem to be the way to go.

      And I can't speak from experience, but it seems like it would be code similar to how shields work. You wield a shield in the opposite hand, and you can attack with it. It can be that far off in the code for a weapon to function with the same properties.


      With the combat changes slowing down now though, I see this being a bit off in the future if ever.
      Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
      I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

      You mean it's true?
      Originally posted by Phwoar
      Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
      Originally posted by Elowynn
      Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

      Comment


      • #4
        I would love to see this, but I would think it would have to be D&D-esque. The primary weapon can be of any normal size, but any off-hand weapon should be of equal or lesser size. Also, the secondary weapon offensive rank bonus contributions shouldn't exceed a fraction (75%?) of the primary bonuses. I would imagine that no matter how good you are with a weapon, wielding two weapons is going to hinder your ability somewhat. (Maybe implement an ambidextrous trait to negate the penalty?) As far as timing goes, I could see some issues. Are you suggesting that if you attack with your primary, you won't be able to attack with your secondary until your first rt is up? So no simultaneous or 3/2 attacks? Otherwise I think you have some valid ideas that might be interesting to see.
        Try Dark Realms: CoS for free!! 173.244.70.250:1138

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        • #5
          Or just two hits with an increased roundtime?

          Stab man
          you stab at a man - puncture

          Stab man
          you stab at a man with both weapons - 2 punctures

          ? Sounds good in effect, but is a second weapon better than a shield? Will hoplite spearmen want to wield 2 spears?
          Argued with GM Tale on forums.
          Character wakes up with 2hp and 2 fatigue, mangled face.
          Skotos didn't care.

          Originally posted by Elowynn
          It's not a good sign if glenh makes more sense than you, L.
          Originally posted by Tale
          My apologies to Glenh.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by cbecker View Post
            I would love to see this, but I would think it would have to be D&D-esque. The primary weapon can be of any normal size, but any off-hand weapon should be of equal or lesser size. Also, the secondary weapon offensive rank bonus contributions shouldn't exceed a fraction (75%?) of the primary bonuses. I would imagine that no matter how good you are with a weapon, wielding two weapons is going to hinder your ability somewhat. (Maybe implement an ambidextrous trait to negate the penalty?) As far as timing goes, I could see some issues. Are you suggesting that if you attack with your primary, you won't be able to attack with your secondary until your first rt is up? So no simultaneous or 3/2 attacks? Otherwise I think you have some valid ideas that might be interesting to see.
            Round times would all be based off of your speed stat/stat skills. As an example, if you have inhuman speed you'll be 1+mos on knife jab, but 3+ mos for axe swat(?). So yes, you would have to finish an attack RT before moving on to the next.

            The real penalties come from giving up a shield layer, and with that a complete layer of defense. If I wanted to wield two knives for example, my only defensive layers would be CM's and knives, and the second knife would receive 33% of the overall RB from your knife blocks. Without a complete third layer though(Or any third layer), any build will suffer from defense penalties. The more offensive the build the more it suffers.

            The real offensive perks come from being able to use moves from two one handed skillsets. If I were wielding a knife and a whip, I could take advantage of knives double hitters AND whips grapples. But I would lose a shield layer, and because whips have no weapon blocks I would be confined to 100/50 knives/CM's for total defense available.

            The more I think about it, it really is just shield mechanics being applied to a weapon.
            Last edited by Rupert; 08-22-2013, 05:50 PM.
            Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
            I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

            You mean it's true?
            Originally posted by Phwoar
            Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
            Originally posted by Elowynn
            Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

            Comment


            • #7
              What happens when someone wants to stack two weapons that make them invincible? Like Nelsor + knives/CKF? Whips + Nelsor? Or Knives/CKF + Cestus? Nelsor + Cestus? Or clubs + anything?

              It's a cool idea, but there are lots of problems that could arise without a whole lot of penalties. The off hand weapon should only have half of the available RB per offensive move and 15% of the defense if anything. But even then you would still have some OP builds, unless you limit it to certain weapons and skills, we'll have the sword style issue all over again, except with more people asking for refunds.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'd say somewhere between 50-75% rb w/both weapons.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lykatos View Post
                  What happens when someone wants to stack two weapons that make them invincible? Like Nelsor + knives/CKF? Whips + Nelsor? Or Knives/CKF + Cestus? Nelsor + Cestus? Or clubs + anything?

                  It's a cool idea, but there are lots of problems that could arise without a whole lot of penalties. The off hand weapon should only have half of the available RB per offensive move and 15% of the defense if anything. But even then you would still have some OP builds, unless you limit it to certain weapons and skills, we'll have the sword style issue all over again, except with more people asking for refunds.
                  Styles have their own requirements, lets just throw out styles skills completely. That should fix all of those problems.
                  The problem with giving the off-handed weapon half RB is there would be no reason to use the offensive moves. The problem with giving people less than what others receive from a third layer is you remove two weapons from competing at any kind of high tier level. I would think giving up a complete layer of defense in exchange for a few utility moves would be punishment enough.
                  Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
                  I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

                  You mean it's true?
                  Originally posted by Phwoar
                  Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
                  Originally posted by Elowynn
                  Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think, for this to be balanced, there would need to be a significant penalty to one-handed weapon defense. I don't like the multi-hitter idea, too over powered. But I don't see any other option for it to be viable. Making each hit harder wouldn't really make sense if you have 2 weapons wielded.

                    One problem with balance would be trying to explain why a weapon like say a cestus wouldn't have all multi-hitters when they are essentially already dual wielded.

                    Also, for say a weapon like swords that can give up a shield and still have 2 full layers of defense. Then pick up another weapon and have access to even more multi-hitters.

                    Additionally, this would be another strategic advantage for one-handed weapons while two-handed weapons are once again limited.

                    Furthermore, we just got rid of this ability with swords. This would basically allow people to cherry-pick the best moves from 2 different skillsets if they do decide to pick up a different weapon.
                    A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                    A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                    A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                    “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rupert View Post
                      Styles have their own requirements, lets just throw out styles completely. That should fix all of those problems.
                      The requirement for styles was put in place specifically to avoid this 'feature' with swords. Allowing you to dual wield would essentially expand the issue that was just 'fixed' with swords to all one-handed skillsets.
                      A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                      A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                      A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                      “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dragonus View Post
                        I think, for this to be balanced, there would need to be a significant penalty to one-handed weapon defense. I don't like the multi-hitter idea, too over powered. But I don't see any other option for it to be viable. Making each hit harder wouldn't really make sense if you have 2 weapons wielded.

                        One problem with balance would be trying to explain why a weapon like say a cestus wouldn't have all multi-hitters when they are essentially already dual wielded.

                        Also, for say a weapon like swords that can give up a shield and still have 2 full layers of defense. Then pick up another weapon and have access to even more multi-hitters.

                        Additionally, this would be another strategic advantage for one-handed weapons while two-handed weapons are once again limited.

                        Furthermore, we just got rid of this ability with swords. This would basically allow people to cherry-pick the best moves from 2 different skillsets if they do decide to pick up a different weapon.
                        And gladius would be the only weapon available that could have two complete layers of defense available to it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no other weapon offers a complete layer through blocks.

                        The gladius wielder has a few options here under what's proposed. he can pick up the two CM's and have his gladius blocks count for 33% in the third layer, or he can learn a completely different weapon in place of his shield layer. If a gladius wielder goes with the second gladius, he has the most powerful defense available to this system, and a frightening arsenal comprised of Jab, stab, and sap. This looks like it balances itself out in this case.

                        What about a knivesman/whipper? This will more than likely be the most devastating combination you can make offensively. But in exchange for the whips offenses, he receives no third layer.

                        If he does decide to learn a completely seperate weapon, he still will never have the defense someone who took a shield would have, and he would have no offensive bonus outside of twice the arsenal at his disposal.

                        There will more than likely be a superior combination, as well as more than likely be bugs with putting a system like this in. I bet it won't be easy to find though, and it will always be a toss up between having better defense or better offense. The only things we can say for sure is that defensively they'll be at a disadvantage over traditonal 1hw/cm/shield builds, and they will have very few offensive bonuses to counter it. No matter what, giving up that shield layer provides holes on all one handed weapons to take advantage of.

                        So, you can learn an easy third layer comprised of 4 shield blocks... Or you can learn two Combat maneuvers necessary, and an entire other weapon to take advantage of its attacks/blocks.
                        Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
                        I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

                        You mean it's true?
                        Originally posted by Phwoar
                        Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
                        Originally posted by Elowynn
                        Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm not sure if I'm 100% understanding your proposition.

                          So before I touch on the other points, I just want to clear something up.

                          Originally posted by Rupert View Post
                          The gladius wielder has a few options here under what's proposed. he can pick up the two CM's and have his gladius blocks count for 33% in the third layer, or he can learn a completely different weapon in place of his shield layer. If a gladius wielder goes with the second gladius, he has the most powerful defense available to this system, and a frightening arsenal comprised of Jab, stab, and sap. This looks like it balances itself out in this case.
                          If I have 2 gladii wielded, would it not be 100% CM dodges and 50% gladius blocks? Where does the 33% come in? Are you saying it should be 100/33? Or are you saying the gladius blocks should count twice, as in 100/50/33? You do mention it as a third layer.

                          But seeing as that (for the most part) gladius blocks > shield blocks, replacing your shield blocks with another layer of gladius blocks would be even more defensive than having a shield wielded.
                          A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                          A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                          A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                          “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dragonus View Post
                            I'm not sure if I'm 100% understanding your proposition.

                            So before I touch on the other points, I just want to clear something up.



                            If I have 2 gladii wielded, would it not be 100% CM dodges and 50% gladius blocks? Where does the 33% come in? Are you saying it should be 100/33? Or are you saying the gladius blocks should count twice, as in 100/50/33? You do mention it as a third layer.

                            But seeing as that (for the most part) gladius blocks > shield blocks, replacing your shield blocks with another layer of gladius blocks would be even more defensive than having a shield wielded.
                            Your first layer is always the one you have more RB in. If that were CM's, then it would act as first layer, yes. the 33% is re-added in (If the person is wielding two gladii) for a third layer. Regardless of which skillset you have more RB in, the alternative weapon blocks are always used in third layer.

                            Yes, a gladius would have comparable defense to a shield layer, except a gladius requires 6 skills to accomplish what a shield does in 4. The gladius wielder would also be giving up the offensive perks of Avros, Nelsor, and Pardelian in exchange for whatever is available in OHS. In this scenario, you end up with the strongest defense possible with two weapons, with what might be the weakest offense.
                            Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
                            I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

                            You mean it's true?
                            Originally posted by Phwoar
                            Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
                            Originally posted by Elowynn
                            Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rupert View Post
                              Your first layer is always the one you have more RB in. If that were CM's, then it would act as first layer, yes. the 33% is re-added in (If the person is wielding two gladii) for a third layer. Regardless of which skillset you have more RB in, the alternative weapon blocks are always used in third layer.

                              Yes, a gladius would have comparable defense to a shield layer, except a gladius requires 6 skills to accomplish what a shield does in 4. The gladius wielder would also be giving up the offensive perks of Avros, Nelsor, and Pardelian in exchange for whatever is available in OHS. In this scenario, you end up with the strongest defense possible with two weapons, with what might be the weakest offense.
                              Yes, but training a shield take more SP (new skillslot, new skills, etc.) If I only have gladius blocks and I wield a second gladius, I essentially have a 100/83 defense only knowing 2 skillsets (assuming most people have CMs as their first layer).

                              Or as you mentioned, the first layer is the one with the highest RB. So if my first layer happened to be sword blocks, I'd have a 133/50 defensive layer with 2 skillsets?

                              Having a first layer count for 133% of the RB invested into it is worthwhile enough. Let alone any perks from dual wielding (such as not having a shield to break/repair/etc.)

                              I like the concept of dual wielding, but it has a high potential for abuse and overpowered characters.
                              A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                              A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                              A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                              “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

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