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SkotOS Downtown: Wednesday, 11am-1pm PT

I am scheduling a downtime for all SkotOS machines from 11am-1pm PT on Wednesday.
  • Marrach will be going down to upgrade its Operating System
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Dual wielding

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  • #16
    I'd be fine with it under the following CHANGES to your suggestion.

    New skills:

    Offhand Swording
    OHS | impossible | passive
    RB as an AVERAGE move.
    Used as the basis for offhand 'basics' for all maneuvers used in off hand. Blocks are never treated as higher t han your offhand swording rank is, either. So if you are 800 basic swords, 200 simple block, 100 offhand swording, then you are treated as 100/100 in simple block when using offhand swording. And your basics rb added is going to be lower, since the offhand rb is average instead of easy.

    Additional considerations:

    Offhand jab
    offhand chop
    offhand slash
    etc.

    Same rules as above, but all maneuvers hit slightly lighter than they would mainhand. They all clearly state 'with his offhand weapon' in their descriptor line though.
    (these would be a 'for funsies', and therefore should not be considered on balance perspective.)

    Considerations:
    Obviously, knives are up for consideration too. And 1hax actually make GREAT sense in this capacity. To the point where they should actually get BONUSES to their to hits when used in this way. Nets are another big one, as are capes. Perhaps 'offhand swording' can count asbasics for all possible considerations (except where your mainhand attacks and defenses draw their bonuses), alowing for sword mainhand/axe offhand, or axe mainhand/knife offhand (Hey Hawkeye, I'm looking at you.)

    Alternatively, 'offhand combat' could just be a lore set, with basic and subskills that have different weapons you could offhand wield, each getting penalties to some maneuvers, bonuses to others, and access to certain unique ones. MOS (even with a retalq) slash that is hard to hit with, but works great against stunned opponents? Sounds like a knife move. Extremely easy to land hook, that is also pretty easy to get out of if you are fast enough, but can lead to a sudden disarm if they time it well? Screams hatchet. Feint that conceals your vision, thus putting you inside round time to get it out of your face? Capes! etc. This could be set

    Originally posted by VinianQuartz
    HAIL CULEXUS

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Dragonus View Post
      Yes, but training a shield take more SP (new skillslot, new skills, etc.) If I only have gladius blocks and I wield a second gladius, I essentially have a 100/83 defense only knowing 2 skillsets (assuming most people have CMs as their first layer).

      Or as you mentioned, the first layer is the one with the highest RB. So if my first layer happened to be sword blocks, I'd have a 133/50 defensive layer with 2 skillsets?
      Correct, you would have 100/50/33 like any third layer. I'm not sure where the 100/83 is coming from, though. And the person would still have to learn 180 ranks in the two CM's to use the full 100% offense of a second weapon, and the maximum of 33% of the defense. This is just about half the ranks a serious combatant would invest into shields. If they want to use a different secondary weapon they're still required to learn the CM's to use it, and an entire different weapon skill set.

      So if someone had all the requirements to use two gladii, they would have comparable defense to a gladi/CM/shield, but they are completely giving up the ability to use Avros, Nelsor and Pardelian. They are restricted to what's available in one handed swords.

      Every other weapon has a defensive hole. Even if you apply the blocks a second time at 33%, the hole is still there to be taken advantage of.

      This idea is an effort to avoid calling on the creation of a bunch of new skills, or skill sets, or lore sets. It's core is proposing dozens and dozens of new character builds by giving one handed weapons JUST the ability to function like a shield. I'd love to see what you're suggesting Armataan, as much as I'd like to see all the weapons get their own styles. But the answer to either of those things happening is likely the same.
      Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
      I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

      You mean it's true?
      Originally posted by Phwoar
      Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
      Originally posted by Elowynn
      Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

      Comment


      • #18
        Actually, sword + cestus or cestus + knives would give you the best defense... Clubs + whips and Clubs + knives would have the best offense.

        Dragonus echos what I said, you've just replaced the sword styles with "weapon styles".

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lykatos View Post
          Actually, sword + cestus or cestus + knives would give you the best defense... Clubs + whips and Clubs + knives would have the best offense.
          If cestus blocks can be used with one cestus, that would make for an interesting setup. OR you could just assure all cestus blocks are two handed, making that combination impossible.

          Dragonus echos what I said, you've just replaced the sword styles with "weapon styles".
          I guess I don't see more combat dynamics and character arch types as being a bad thing. Isn't that argument just as valid against any possible combat addition in the future?

          I could understand this way of thinking if balance wasn't something painstaking pursued in TEC.. but it is. To the point where players pursue deeper knowledge of mechanics through personal testing for YEARS to better make their cases on combat additions and balancing what we have. In what way could any combat addition ever be made that didn't possibly give someone an edge?

          I'd love to see this idea, but the likelihood is it probably won't happen. That won't stop me from proposing innovative, simple solutions with butt-loads of pay off though. I would hope it's the same for everyone. Even if someone someday might abuse something somewhere.
          Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
          I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

          You mean it's true?
          Originally posted by Phwoar
          Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
          Originally posted by Elowynn
          Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

          Comment


          • #20
            Fishing Pole + Ladle

            'Nuff said.
            Game Master Tale
            Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Creativity is putting tomatoes in a fruit salad to make mango salsa. Philosophy is wondering if that means ketchup is actually a smoothie. Common Sense is knowing that no, ketchup is not a smoothie.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lykatos View Post
              Dragonus echos what I said, you've just replaced the sword styles with "weapon styles".
              Yes, but it took me longer to type so I only saw your post afterwards. =p

              But yes, we're saying the same thing.
              A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
              A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
              A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


              “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Tale View Post
                Fishing Pole + Ladle

                'Nuff said.
                I raise you with a sewing needle and a lockpick. Ranks in basic skills increase their 'attack' chance and damage.
                Argued with GM Tale on forums.
                Character wakes up with 2hp and 2 fatigue, mangled face.
                Skotos didn't care.

                Originally posted by Elowynn
                It's not a good sign if glenh makes more sense than you, L.
                Originally posted by Tale
                My apologies to Glenh.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rupert View Post
                  I guess I don't see more combat dynamics and character arch types as being a bad thing. Isn't that argument just as valid against any possible combat addition in the future?
                  New moves, skillsets and strategies is all good, fun and balanced. What we're trying to get away from (as we just did with swords), is the ability for characters to cherry-pick the best skills from multiple skillsets and string them together into something very overpowered. So no, I don't think dual wielding different weapons will ever happen. The same weapon? Maybe.

                  But something like...

                  ankletrap (pin them)
                  yank (yank them down)
                  flick (just cause you'd have enough time)
                  ankletrap (pin them to the ground with one hand)
                  knockaside (stun them)
                  hopbash face (while they're stunned)
                  repeat knockaside + hop bash until KO

                  ...is what could easily be abused. Or even a knockaside + doublecut neck combo. Or anything else someone could think of. The pros greatly outweigh the cons. I don't see enough defensive drawbacks to warrant the huge offensive gain.
                  A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome says to a ram in Cineran, "Oh yes, hit me now, you bad bad bad sheep."
                  A woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome is stunned.
                  A ram bumps roughly into a woman in a shiny boison helmet with an absurdly tall dome with its head!.


                  “Everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer... because it teaches you how to think.” - Steve Jobs

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Pft...
                    Whips + clubs
                    Ankle trap... yank... knockaside... neck trap... knockaside... hop bash... throttle... throttle... knockaside... celebrate.

                    The only way to make it even remotely balanced is to reduce the ability of the offhand weapon. A slight defensive penalty for not having a shield isn't a big deal, because with certain combinations you have a better defense than with a shield and others you don't need a shield because you could zerk and the other person has no option but to go wary.

                    The idea sounds like fun, but there are too many issues unless you decide to limit people to easy or "simple" attacks.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dragonus View Post
                      New moves, skillsets and strategies is all good, fun and balanced. What we're trying to get away from (as we just did with swords), is the ability for characters to cherry-pick the best skills from multiple skillsets and string them together into something very overpowered. So no, I don't think dual wielding different weapons will ever happen. The same weapon? Maybe.
                      I guess you could cherry pick things, that seems like a strange thing to focus on in the overall scope though. But yeah, if someone wanted to learn knives, CM's, gladius, axe and clubs, I guess they could cherry pick between by unwielding, putting away and pulling out a new weapon. I can't see that winning too many fights, especially with huge defensive holes you can never fill. Then again, aren't there some fighters who use brawling and the 2ha grapples effectively.. or is that cherry picking too?


                      But something like...

                      ankletrap (pin them)
                      yank (yank them down)
                      flick (just cause you'd have enough time)
                      ankletrap (pin them to the ground with one hand)
                      knockaside (stun them)
                      hopbash face (while they're stunned)
                      repeat knockaside + hop bash until KO
                      Meanwhile, the person has 1 layer of low defense to speak of. Clubs and whips would be one of the most offensive combo's you could make. That is all stopped by:

                      Stomp

                      For your scenario to happen, someone would have to be really outclassed. And if an opponent is outclassed, what weapon exactly couldn't you take advantage of for something similar now? The difference being, again, the dual weapon wielder would have holes he could never fill.

                      If you were both the same rank, you would be able to hit a character like that with all of your moves from wary.

                      ...is what could easily be abused. Or even a knockaside + doublecut neck combo. Or anything else someone could think of. The pros greatly outweigh the cons. I don't see enough defensive drawbacks to warrant the huge offensive gain.
                      Is your concern banditing by any chance? These don't seem like real concerns for gladiator fights.

                      You guys keep telling me there are too many issues, but then you're proposing issues that aren't even real concerns. Yes, there are VERY FEW combinations where you would have a better defense with two weapons than a shield.. you are still outright punished offensively for taking them on. You still have to learn two Combat Maneuvers to grand master and all of a weapons blocks/attacks to whatever rank you want to compete with. You are putting far MORE work in, you're ending up with holes you can never fill, and the only trade-off is what your off-handed weapon might offer offensively. It sounds to me like the con's are outweighing the pro's here. You can't ask someone to put in MORE training for a disadvantage, and you two don't seem like you'll be content until the idea is a novelty.
                      Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
                      I thought it was just a rumor that it was all number-crunching and competitive training in a game with no logical endpoint since characters are ostensibly immortal and can always get better.

                      You mean it's true?
                      Originally posted by Phwoar
                      Maybe I'm just becoming some tea-sipping hippy, or maybe I'm sour because my main uses cesti, but, why sacrifice a character idea for the sake of some hypothetical edge in some imagined combat situation in the distant future?
                      Originally posted by Elowynn
                      Rupert is like the Snowden champion of TEC.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rupert View Post
                        I guess you could cherry pick things, that seems like a strange thing to focus on in the overall scope though. But yeah, if someone wanted to learn knives, CM's, gladius, axe and clubs, I guess they could cherry pick between by unwielding, putting away and pulling out a new weapon. I can't see that winning too many fights, especially with huge defensive holes you can never fill. Then again, aren't there some fighters who use brawling and the 2ha grapples effectively.. or is that cherry picking too?




                        Meanwhile, the person has 1 layer of low defense to speak of. Clubs and whips would be one of the most offensive combo's you could make. That is all stopped by:

                        Stomp

                        For your scenario to happen, someone would have to be really outclassed. And if an opponent is outclassed, what weapon exactly couldn't you take advantage of for something similar now? The difference being, again, the dual weapon wielder would have holes he could never fill.

                        If you were both the same rank, you would be able to hit a character like that with all of your moves from wary.



                        Is your concern banditing by any chance? These don't seem like real concerns for gladiator fights.

                        You guys keep telling me there are too many issues, but then you're proposing issues that aren't even real concerns. Yes, there are VERY FEW combinations where you would have a better defense with two weapons than a shield.. you are still outright punished offensively for taking them on. You still have to learn two Combat Maneuvers to grand master and all of a weapons blocks/attacks to whatever rank you want to compete with. You are putting far MORE work in, you're ending up with holes you can never fill, and the only trade-off is what your off-handed weapon might offer offensively. It sounds to me like the con's are outweighing the pro's here. You can't ask someone to put in MORE training for a disadvantage, and you two don't seem like you'll be content until the idea is a novelty.
                        I was pointing out the obvious flaws with the idea. The only pros are "RP" (which you can just emote a second wield... I did that for a while) and having an OP offense with nothing to keep it in check.

                        The difference between having access to a complete new skill set, and picking up stomp to balance out an offensively inferior skill set is night and day. You can't use punch or hardslap with a weapon... which is why I said cap it at simple actions, you can still have all the fun of knife jab + sword jab... but wouldn't be able to armspin, face slash, double cut, double cut, sap, double cut, double cut, celebrate.

                        You keep mentioning defense compared to shields like it's this massive disadvantage. Look at the actual coverage and how the defenses layer. Only a couple combinations would provide a defense that would be vastly inferior. So you're giving up a few RB against a few attacks, I'd take that in a heartbeat if I could create the most OP offense imaginable.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I think before we all pick apart Rupert's idea and scrap it, let's consider the "cool" factor dual-wielding has to offer. I'm almost certain that if there were absolutely no way for this option to be overpowered (impossible thought, I know), the majority of players would like to see it IG. I think Armataan is on the right track with making it a mostly "for-show" mechanic that would allow players to sacrifice legitimate advantages (primarily defense) in order to expand role play and gameplay alike. I like the idea of creating an "off-hand" governing skill for each skillset capable of being wielded in the off-hand. Make it an average or difficult (or even impossible) skill based on the weapon size. In order to control abuse (and to limit its effectiveness in PVP which is what you all seem to be mostly concerned with), place a hard RB cap around 90 or 100 as per stances, so that no matter how good you are in OHS, your off-hand would only get RB bonuses up to rank 100. Offensive RB and/or damage could also be limited to a certain percentage of a primary weapon at rank 100 if need be. Also I think you would need a slight round time penalty for not rotating your weapon hands, or inversely, a slight round time decrease for using them back and forth. Most serious PVP'ers aren't going to have an issue overcoming the two-weapon fighter who is limited to 100 ranks worth of RB with his off-hand, yet fighting NPCs would still be viable for about 90% of the hunting areas.

                          Hey... it could be a fun thing to see. I think we're allowing abuse of past changes to combat to cause us to see past the fact that we have a very capable staff and a very proactive playerbase capable of deciphering proper balance.

                          *EDIT: I forgot to address the defensive layer issue I had. Wielding two weapons should in no way be as effective as wielding 1 weapon and a shield. If your third layer of defense is a weapon (or the same weapon especially), it should be penalized somewhat. However, I am open to the addition of new skills within skillsets that allow for double-weapon blocking. These could potentially help cover holes left by the lack of shield, but at much higher sp costs (since you're working with the same skill slot).

                          A man in a hooded cloak crouches down and crosses his gladii to catch a woman in a featureless faceplate's swing!
                          Try Dark Realms: CoS for free!! 173.244.70.250:1138

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                          • #28
                            Something simple like 1 second off roundtimes but less damage?

                            So you could be quicker, less damage and not have a shield. If you wanted to. Knives would be fun with all MoS though. Dual-wielding will always be hard to balance i reckon unless you just create whole new skillsets for them.
                            Argued with GM Tale on forums.
                            Character wakes up with 2hp and 2 fatigue, mangled face.
                            Skotos didn't care.

                            Originally posted by Elowynn
                            It's not a good sign if glenh makes more sense than you, L.
                            Originally posted by Tale
                            My apologies to Glenh.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by glenh View Post
                              Something simple like 1 second off roundtimes but less damage?
                              Lol.

                              Assuming you cut my damage by 75%, giving swords MOS attacks still seems inadviseable.

                              ----

                              While I could quibble over the mechanics side of becker's post, or over some assumptions he had (a serious fighter won't worry about a rank 100 offhand move being able to hit him for example), overall I think he has a good grasp on what should probably be the direction such things go.

                              Make an offhand combat teacher that teaches all of the techniques for all of the weapons, keep it obviously subpar, allow my tier 5 to fight as a tier 3 using two-weapons in the arena as a means of being fun and flavorful. Are there 2h fighters in the world that are ridiculously dangerous? Yes. Are they the PCs? I never think they should be. I don't think your offense s hould get a single benefit, and I think the benefit to your defense should be negligable. Worse than shield in hand, better than nothing in hand.

                              Originally posted by VinianQuartz
                              HAIL CULEXUS

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Off hand 2h axe. Or is this limited to 1h weapons, leaving 2h weapon users with an "oh well"?

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