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  • Rupert
    started a topic Dual wielding

    Dual wielding

    Introduce two new combat maneuvers.

    - Off-handed defense: Allows a character to utilize any one handed weapon blocks they have access to on a weapon wielded in their off hand. With 90 ranks in Off-handed defense, a person is capable of using 33% (Third layer) of the rank bonus available to the weapons blocks.

    -Off-handed offense: Allows a character to utilize any one handed weapon attack they have access to on a weapon wielded in their off hand. With 90 ranks in off-handed offense, a character can utilize 100% of rank bonus available in off-handed weapons attacks.

    Have both of these skills scale like Arrow awareness, where it brings a certain portion of your defensive/offensive RB in for each rank. Have all round times for all moves remain the same while dual wielding.

    With this, introduce a command that allows you to swap the contents of your hands for the purpose of utilizing a primary weapon over a secondary.

    All single handed weapons would be usable and inter changeable in combat scenario's, the only requirement being that you know how to do the skills you are attempting to use. This includes two of the same weapon, provided the character has both combat maneuvers.

  • Tubthumper
    replied
    Bump. Can we look into this?

    Leave a comment:


  • glenh
    replied
    I still think creating entire new skillsets for dual wielding would be better than trying to manipulate skillsets.

    Leave a comment:


  • urek23
    replied
    It isnt satisfying me in any way. I think its fair and nothing else.

    Leave a comment:


  • Armataan
    replied
    I'd be fine with something along the lines of new descriptive custom moves being released for 2hax, tridents, 2h spears, and 2h staves if a duel wield set of mechanics went through. They could be roughly the same power/usefulness as Questrius's toss and crush.

    That is satisfying for your means, isn't it Urek? And it isn't as if it would grow weapon power in any discernable way.


    You now have 198 hit points.
    [Success: 5, Roll: 100] Tossing his axe up into the air dramatically, Culexus glares at you mockingly as he stands defenseless. The axe comes down hard and fast as its blade bites at flesh! Critical hit! Nothing doing. Culexus takes up his axed wields it in both hands immediately.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbecker
    replied
    Originally posted by urek23 View Post
    what im saying is: 2h weapon users wouldnt get the option to dual wield. So.. Oh well for them?

    Opening another way to use weapons is good and all but shouldnt it be good for everyone if its a fundamental change?
    yes but only for barbs.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbecker
    replied
    Originally posted by glenh View Post
    Something simple like 1 second off roundtimes but less damage?

    So you could be quicker, less damage and not have a shield. If you wanted to. Knives would be fun with all MoS though. Dual-wielding will always be hard to balance i reckon unless you just create whole new skillsets for them.
    I like the concept of quicker, but less damage. Across the board -1sec is pretty unbalanced. Perhaps every other offhand attack gets -1sec? You could more easily plan your attacks to get that backhand slash off as fast as the rest of your attacks.

    Leave a comment:


  • urek23
    replied
    What Im saying is: 2h weapon users wouldnt get the option to dual wield. So.. oh well for them?

    Opening another way to use weapons is good and all but shouldnt it be good for everyone if its a fundamental change?

    Leave a comment:


  • Armataan
    replied
    Stave + shield
    spear + shield
    cestus + shield

    that leaves tridents, pankration, and 2hax as 'oh well' catagories.

    every other weapon is 1h and designed to fight with either a shield or an offhand implement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lime
    replied
    Uh, the 2h axe requires 2 hands to do its moves..it would not make sense for you to be able to wield a 2h axe in one hand and use it that way. I don't get what you're saying.

    Leave a comment:


  • urek23
    replied
    Off hand 2h axe. Or is this limited to 1h weapons, leaving 2h weapon users with an "oh well"?

    Leave a comment:


  • Armataan
    replied
    Originally posted by glenh View Post
    Something simple like 1 second off roundtimes but less damage?
    Lol.

    Assuming you cut my damage by 75%, giving swords MOS attacks still seems inadviseable.

    ----

    While I could quibble over the mechanics side of becker's post, or over some assumptions he had (a serious fighter won't worry about a rank 100 offhand move being able to hit him for example), overall I think he has a good grasp on what should probably be the direction such things go.

    Make an offhand combat teacher that teaches all of the techniques for all of the weapons, keep it obviously subpar, allow my tier 5 to fight as a tier 3 using two-weapons in the arena as a means of being fun and flavorful. Are there 2h fighters in the world that are ridiculously dangerous? Yes. Are they the PCs? I never think they should be. I don't think your offense s hould get a single benefit, and I think the benefit to your defense should be negligable. Worse than shield in hand, better than nothing in hand.

    Leave a comment:


  • glenh
    replied
    Something simple like 1 second off roundtimes but less damage?

    So you could be quicker, less damage and not have a shield. If you wanted to. Knives would be fun with all MoS though. Dual-wielding will always be hard to balance i reckon unless you just create whole new skillsets for them.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbecker
    replied
    I think before we all pick apart Rupert's idea and scrap it, let's consider the "cool" factor dual-wielding has to offer. I'm almost certain that if there were absolutely no way for this option to be overpowered (impossible thought, I know), the majority of players would like to see it IG. I think Armataan is on the right track with making it a mostly "for-show" mechanic that would allow players to sacrifice legitimate advantages (primarily defense) in order to expand role play and gameplay alike. I like the idea of creating an "off-hand" governing skill for each skillset capable of being wielded in the off-hand. Make it an average or difficult (or even impossible) skill based on the weapon size. In order to control abuse (and to limit its effectiveness in PVP which is what you all seem to be mostly concerned with), place a hard RB cap around 90 or 100 as per stances, so that no matter how good you are in OHS, your off-hand would only get RB bonuses up to rank 100. Offensive RB and/or damage could also be limited to a certain percentage of a primary weapon at rank 100 if need be. Also I think you would need a slight round time penalty for not rotating your weapon hands, or inversely, a slight round time decrease for using them back and forth. Most serious PVP'ers aren't going to have an issue overcoming the two-weapon fighter who is limited to 100 ranks worth of RB with his off-hand, yet fighting NPCs would still be viable for about 90% of the hunting areas.

    Hey... it could be a fun thing to see. I think we're allowing abuse of past changes to combat to cause us to see past the fact that we have a very capable staff and a very proactive playerbase capable of deciphering proper balance.

    *EDIT: I forgot to address the defensive layer issue I had. Wielding two weapons should in no way be as effective as wielding 1 weapon and a shield. If your third layer of defense is a weapon (or the same weapon especially), it should be penalized somewhat. However, I am open to the addition of new skills within skillsets that allow for double-weapon blocking. These could potentially help cover holes left by the lack of shield, but at much higher sp costs (since you're working with the same skill slot).

    A man in a hooded cloak crouches down and crosses his gladii to catch a woman in a featureless faceplate's swing!

    Leave a comment:


  • lykatos
    replied
    Originally posted by Rupert View Post
    I guess you could cherry pick things, that seems like a strange thing to focus on in the overall scope though. But yeah, if someone wanted to learn knives, CM's, gladius, axe and clubs, I guess they could cherry pick between by unwielding, putting away and pulling out a new weapon. I can't see that winning too many fights, especially with huge defensive holes you can never fill. Then again, aren't there some fighters who use brawling and the 2ha grapples effectively.. or is that cherry picking too?




    Meanwhile, the person has 1 layer of low defense to speak of. Clubs and whips would be one of the most offensive combo's you could make. That is all stopped by:

    Stomp

    For your scenario to happen, someone would have to be really outclassed. And if an opponent is outclassed, what weapon exactly couldn't you take advantage of for something similar now? The difference being, again, the dual weapon wielder would have holes he could never fill.

    If you were both the same rank, you would be able to hit a character like that with all of your moves from wary.



    Is your concern banditing by any chance? These don't seem like real concerns for gladiator fights.

    You guys keep telling me there are too many issues, but then you're proposing issues that aren't even real concerns. Yes, there are VERY FEW combinations where you would have a better defense with two weapons than a shield.. you are still outright punished offensively for taking them on. You still have to learn two Combat Maneuvers to grand master and all of a weapons blocks/attacks to whatever rank you want to compete with. You are putting far MORE work in, you're ending up with holes you can never fill, and the only trade-off is what your off-handed weapon might offer offensively. It sounds to me like the con's are outweighing the pro's here. You can't ask someone to put in MORE training for a disadvantage, and you two don't seem like you'll be content until the idea is a novelty.
    I was pointing out the obvious flaws with the idea. The only pros are "RP" (which you can just emote a second wield... I did that for a while) and having an OP offense with nothing to keep it in check.

    The difference between having access to a complete new skill set, and picking up stomp to balance out an offensively inferior skill set is night and day. You can't use punch or hardslap with a weapon... which is why I said cap it at simple actions, you can still have all the fun of knife jab + sword jab... but wouldn't be able to armspin, face slash, double cut, double cut, sap, double cut, double cut, celebrate.

    You keep mentioning defense compared to shields like it's this massive disadvantage. Look at the actual coverage and how the defenses layer. Only a couple combinations would provide a defense that would be vastly inferior. So you're giving up a few RB against a few attacks, I'd take that in a heartbeat if I could create the most OP offense imaginable.

    Leave a comment:

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