Private Rooms and Use of Staff Powers

[Geist]

This posting is in answer to some questions presented in a couple of threads. I've chosen to address them in one location and point to this location in those threads.

Apologies for the delay in chiming in on this but I needed to review some things and think through some others. I’m going to address two topics back-to-back, room privacy and use of staff powers in support of IC activities.

First, room privacy. I want to make it clear that I am specifically addressing what staff members will or will not do within their responsibilities as members of staff. Situations where staff members plays an NPC or VP are additionally complicated in that the use of their powers may be ICly motivated with IC consequences and I’ll address those specifically in a moment. The same holds true for Storyplotters who have to manage complicated plots with very little real-time information, but that will be addressed in the second part as well.

Outside of account information there is no explicit right to privacy as per the Terms of Service, but it is extended to players as a courtesy because, quite frankly, there is a legitimate expectation of such. Note the differentiation there, however – players, not characters. In accordance with the administrative guidelines used by Castle Marrach, staff are forbidden from eavesdropping “on private areas without permission or invitation” where “private area” is defined as “any place owned in-character by a PC where a ‘normal' player could not legitimately go without an invitation.” That statement stands and is what the staff is instructed to follow, but reality is not as simple as a couple of sentences.

The courtesy of privacy is extended so that players can have a place where they are free to speak or act without fear of staff peeking in or eavesdropping. This is to insure that the players have the sense of safety that they can do or say things in those private spaces that won’t be observed or recorded. What that is, is up to you. Perhaps it is a particular type of role-playing that you prefer privacy for, or perhaps it is so that you can speak freely out-of-character about your issues or concerns with game matters with other players. It doesn’t matter – you have that privacy.

There’s a strong differentiation that has to be made here. Staffers should flat out not be entering a private room “bodily” without the explicit permission of the player involved unless absolutely necessary and then its simple courtesy to let them know it happened and why. Information specifically required for the out-of-character maintenance and running of the game might be obtained from a character’s room without explicit permission or notification as long as those actions are specifically required in the course of a staffer’s official duties, which could include bug fixing, object tweaking, plot oversight, and so on. Note again that this is information about *things* in the room, not the actions of characters or players in the room. Staffer should not be extracting information from a private room for the purposes of gaining information on the *player* or his private actions within that room. Period.

If a staffer is caught doing any of these things outside of the requirements of their position on staff, that is clear abuse of power and is not tolerated. Staffers found to be violating their powers in this manner will be, and have been, suspended or banned.


As for use of staff powers in support of in-character actions, understand that we’re talking specifically about situations where staff members play an NPC or VP that has access to special powers or abilities. We are also talking about circumstances where StoryPlotters need to use staff powers to orchestrate the plot and story of the game.

First, no NPC or VP should be using a staff power to simulate a power or ability that they do not or should not legitimately have. Whenever possible, we spend the time and create coded versions of those powers and abilities, but in certain cases where the range of powers at the disposal of an NPC or VP are pretty broad it is not always practical. We are not, for example, going to create coded abilities for every fae or magical power the Queen may have at her disposal. Not going to happen. Not only would it be limiting to us from a story-telling standpoint but it is physically impractical for us to do. NPC/VPs like Lady Serista, Ashke, Sir Maugis (whenever he shows up), Master Ali, the aforementioned Queen Vivienne, Master Orson, the Witchfinder, Odebain and some others fall into the category of those it is more practical to “fake” their powers than code them. It also serves the story to have there be some uncertainty about the breadth and depth of the abilities of these characters.

Realize that there is really a nebulous line between “coded powers” the use of “staff powers” to simulate IC powers – both use game code (very often the same game code) to achieve the same goals. Frankly, I think a big part of the issue is that there is a perceived greater “fairness” when a pre-coded power is used over a staff power used to simulate that power. Though the pre-coded power could have been written up with a lack of fairness in mind, there is a concern that someone using a staff power to simulate an IC ability might not play fair.

Fairness, and the perception of it, is a big deal. That’s really what all this comes down to, isn’t it? Can the player of an NPC or VP be trusted to use their staff powers appropriately and fairly? Critical to the perception of fairness is the fact that you as player/characters have little IC or OOC defense against the application of staff powers (or even coded powers, really). They always work and are absolute and it is up to the staffer in question to adjudicate if the IC power itself should or should not work and how successful the result is. You’ll have to trust us on that.

Yes, it comes down to trust yet again as so many things in this environment do. You either trust us to do fair by you, or you don’t. And when you don’t think you are being played fair with, cry foul with assists. If we’ve made a mistake, we’ll own up to it and correct that error as best we can.

Now, with regard to the specific application of staff powers or coded abilities and player privacy, the same restriction with regard to *player* privacy stands. No coded power will be created that allows a player or NPC/VP to spy on a player’s actions in a private room. We have the capability to visually peer into a room and see what’s in there along the lines of what the Inner Bailey fountain can show, but that’s it. We actually can’t eavesdrop or view a room in real-time without physically possessing an object in that room. Regardless of whether or not it makes sense for an NPC/VP to have that ability, they’re not going to be able to because of that expectation of privacy.

Does it make sense that certain NPC/VPs would have powers or abilities that might give them information about who or what is in a given location or where a person or thing is located? Yes it does, within reason and when applied fairly. Information gathering magics are the bane of many role-playing games, especially any kind of free-form ones, because they can so easily redirect a plotline unexpectedly. When that happens in your favor, it’s cool, but when it happens against you it ain’t so cool. The key to any kind of information gathering magics is they have to be applied legitimately and fairly and consistently.

One thing that we have not done well in the past is provide our NPC/VP players with good guidelines on how non-coded magical or otherwise special powers should be handled and adjudicated. I’m in the process of writing up a long document on that very subject for our NPC/VP staffers and Plotters to use as a basis when they find themselves in improvisational circumstances. It talks about the role of magic in the storytelling of the game, how successful or unsuccessful the use of those magics should be and under what circumstances, and how to use the “laws of magic” (based on Bonewits’ Authentic Thaumaturgy for those who care) to adjudicate those circumstances. There will never, however, be a definitive list of what those previously mentioned characters can and cannot do. Ultimately it is up to the NPC/VP’s player and the StoryPlotting staff to figure out if a particular power or ability is appropriate and how to apply it fairly.

Similar constraints apply to how StoryPlotters use staff powers to assist in their plotting. Fairness and consistency is required, but the ultimate goal is to tell a good story for everyone. StoryPlotters use staff powers to help them guide and manage plots all the time – we have to – but we also operate with the previously mentioned respect for player privacy as well as fairness and consistency. Are we perfect? Nope, but we try the best we can to create and maintain entertaining situations for all of you. As I said before, if you do not believe you are being treated fairly file an assist and it will be addressed as best as we can.

[Xewe]

Just an example and concern...

Say someone wished to spy on the Rememberer meetings IC. It could be in theory possible to create a painting that they could view the room from (IE: possess the painting and then watch what happens in the room then go back to your own body).

That is something I can very easily see as a possible thing to do with magic. Also fair... if the Rememberers are willing to accept strange paintings from people as gifts... well hey *shrug*.

But as not everyone would be able to create special objects to spy on meetings and such (Mainly just staffers as they realy are the only ones that can possess objects) there should be some sort of IC clue that something is going on. (IE: when the person gets in the painting perhaps an emote to the room that says you feel like someone is watching you)

I don't mind so much being spied on. Such happens. But I do want there to be clues that I am being spied on so that I can take measures IC to make sure that the spying stops.

Perhaps with the painting example learning that the painting is magical then learning that it's been letting people spy on the room, and thus having to find a way to either remove the magics from the painting or destroy the painting.

I see that as a great plot myself.

Begining: Someone gifts a paiting to a group, that secretly lets them spy on that group.
Middle: Person spies on group with said painting.
End: Group learns of the nature of painting and deals with it.

Sounds cool to me. Sure I understand staffers are going to have abilities that no player will ever have. I just want abilities they have to be able to be learned how to counter acted by the players. Villian can teleport away... binding circle that prevents teleport. Villian sucks soals out of people, special object that protects your soal from being sucked out. Ect ect.

[Wildra]

Or...the painting could secretly have the eyes cut out in such a way that they can be replaced, and in a secret passageway behind the painting, there is a flap that allows the person to replace the painting's eyes with their own...<_< Freaky, but very classical mystery

[Mouret]

While this does address many of the issues that have been recently discussed in this forum on seperate threads, I do not feel that it properly addresses the issues presented, or at least eventually discussed, on the thread Magic in law enforcement, or moreso on the last page, or two pages, of that thread. At least, I feel that way.

While most of the issues come down to a matter of trust and respect, some of it is a problem of one person assuming something is innocuous and another person taking affront from that matter.

Now, I know I'm not staff or in any way in a position to be making decisions, and in fact have only limited abilities to make suggestions, and I also realize that most, if not all, of my suggestions either have been already made, already addressed and dismissed, or will just be disregarder, I still would like to submit these suggestions for review, if the staff finds time in their schedules to review what I have to say. I also recognize that most staff, or a lot of it, is comprised of volunteers, and for this I thank you for your time.

Now, onto what I have to say.

As far as the complaints of John in the aforementioned thread (Magic in law enforcement), or at the very least in the last page or so of said thread, I think that magic, for the most part, is rather misplaced in the game, both IGly and OOCly. Either a power is used and someone complains about it, which in most cases can just be ignored, as it's likely someone griping about outcomes to something that they should have well seen coming, or someone complains about it and has a complaint that is justly based and must be addressed, or a power is attempted to be used, and shut down by the staff due to consent issues.

Allow me to take this moment to say that I have not personally experienced these, and what I am saying is based mostly on what I've read here in the three threads (and this one) that are being addressed. This may cause you to disregard what I have to say, but I ask that you continue reading, as what I have to say is still intelligent, or I would hope it is, and that hopefully I can go over what I ahve to say in such a manner as to not insult what has become the "sides" in this debate (namely, as it seems to me, "Staff", "Villains", and "Law-Enforcement").

Now, concerning the first issue, the powers being used and complained about unjustly, I would say simply that the "Staff" side of this argument is more firmly based in what "should", or "ought to", happen. This side saying, "Suck it up. Quit if you don't like it, if you don't quit, it must not mean enough to you." Now, that's being a little harsh, I know, but I'm going to be using such hyperbole to get my point across. If a power is properly explained and documented, both IGly and OOCly, then there really isn't anything that can be done about it.

But, as far as a power that is already used, the "Villains" have a proper point, as well. Something shouldn't be concocted "out of the blue" in order to solve a crime. If a crime can't be solved through normal means, or through means that already have a precedent after, what is it now, six years of the game?, then the criminal obviously thought it out enough and, basically, deserves to take the advantages from this crime. Maybe down the road the criminal will screw up, or some already-created power will be able to catch him/her. Yay for the good guys! Maybe the criminal will realize the err of the criminal life and settle down. Yay for the criminal, because (s)he has the thing from that crime, and can live with it. But catching the criminal just to say "We got'im! I > you!" is just rude and detracts from the game.

The criminals also have another valid point, a point in which I wish everyone reading this to realize I may not be correct in what I have to say, as this is based on heresay and therefore may or may not be true.

Originally posted by Uwaine
Hey, that reminds me of something funny.

We had Ashke's focus for ages. It's supposed to give you power over them. No such luck. No magic was ever used against him, despite his (supposedly) being vulnerable.

Ashke was invulnerable. No NPC pulled super-powers out of their rear to defeat him, track him down, or anything. (Hell, no one in power gave a damn, as far as I could tell.)

(Of course, the SPs also decided to "retire" Ashke after his capture, so he couldn't be tried and punished, and so he could escape and come back to continue being anticlimatic.)

So why wasn't magic used against Ashke? I'm sorry to say that the reason that jumps to my mind is that no SP felt "outdone" by a player. (When an SP feels like a player got one over on them, boy, the special powers come out in force. See Mabb's use of CNPC guards, and the creation of a one-off NPC Scribe to facilitate Mabb's Bertram going after Jakt for the event with the disappearing pants.)

I don't know about this, I wasn't around for these events, so I can't verify what's been said, but if I take it to be true, as it seems to be (minus, of course, the opinions within the post), meaning if I take just the facts, such as the sudden appearance of CNPC guards, the inability to control Ashke through his Focus, and Ashke escaping from trial, then I can see that it does indeed seem that some (Please note: SOME, I am not implicating all of the staff) S*s are bitter about losing.

As my suggestion in this case, I have this to say: I served on staff for another skotos prose-roleplaying game, and one of my main concerns in this position was to make sure that the players enjoyed themselves. If that meant that I would lose, meaning that the players win and the character I played failed, so be it. If the character I played got to win, cool for me. S*s and VPs should distance themselves from the character(s) they are playing, so that it's not you that is losing, just he character, and while that may be a disappointment, it's not a personal attack or anything. Try again later, or try something different. If the VPs, etc., win all the time, where does that leave the players? It leaves them as the losers. And no one likes being a loser. (Although, both sides will have their chance to be both a winner and a loser in this game, considering that it is played over an Infinite Time!)

And as far as powers that are suggested but shut down due to consent issues, really, from what I've been able to see, that's about as perfect as perfect can be, both sides are doing what they should be doing. Staff is keeping the overall enjoyment of the game in mind when considering new powers, and the players are trying to come up with innovations to make the game better (heck, maybe even the staff is coming up with these innovations and it's being denied by other staff members, who knows!)

Well, hopefully I didn't offend anyone too much, and hopefully I didn't kill you all with all my typing. I thank you for your time in reading this post.

[SG Dathan]

Originally posted by Mouret
If a power is properly explained and documented, both IGly and OOCly, then there really isn't anything that can be done about it.

To address these two statements. Not all of the powers of some of the VP's in this game will be OOCly documented for all to see. That just isn't going to happen. Assuming that is what you meant by your statement above, that is.

Part of the mystery is that not everything is going to be known, as far as the capabilities of the magic users. And I quote:

Originally posted by Geist
NPC/VPs like Lady Serista, Ashke, Sir Maugis (whenever he shows up), Master Ali, the aforementioned Queen Vivienne, Master Orson, the Witchfinder, Odebain and some others fall into the category of those it is more practical to "fake" their powers than code them. It also serves the story to have there be some uncertainty about the breadth and depth of the abilities of these characters.

Originally posted by Mouret
But, as far as a power that is already used, the "Villains" have a proper point, as well. Something shouldn't be concocted "out of the blue" in order to solve a crime.

I would refer you to the above statement by our Lead Story Plotter, Geist. Characters and or players not knowing about certain abilities does not mean that they won't exist, or be used as necessary to forward game play.

[Geist]

Originally posted by Mouret
While this does address many of the issues that have been recently discussed in this forum on seperate threads, I do not feel that it properly addresses the issues presented, or at least eventually discussed, on the thread Magic in law enforcement, or moreso on the last page, or two pages, of that thread. At least, I feel that way.

With regard to magic and law enforcement you'll note that the extent of direct use of magic has been more than minimal. The Royal Guard have access to one tool that they use infrequently to help them out, but that's it. there have been many many many occassions when there was opportunity for powerful magics to be used to solve crimes, but they weren't. Why? Their use was not appropriate. There are few characters in the game who have the power or ability to use that level of magic, and they're not going to make use of it if just anybody asks. Recently, some powerful magics were used and they were used only because of the circumstances involved, which were very extreme and resulted in a great deal of pressure being exerted to see some resolution to the issue.

Frankly stated, the representatives of law enforcement in the Castle don't have the influence to get those magics wielded for them regularly, which is big reason you haven't heard of it being used before. This was a very particular circumstance with very particular motivations.

I believe in my previous post I said:

The key to any kind of information gathering magics is they have to be applied legitimately and fairly and consistently.

I think that statement stands as the answer to the question about magic used to aid law enforcement.

[Mouret]

Originally posted by SG Dathan
To address these two statements. Not all of the powers of some of the VP's in this game will be OOCly documented for all to see. That just isn't going to happen. Assuming that is what you meant by your statement above, that is.

Part of the mystery is that not everything is going to be known, as far as the capabilities of the magic users. And I quote:

Originally posted by Geist
NPC/VPs like Lady Serista, Ashke, Sir Maugis (whenever he shows up), Master Ali, the aforementioned Queen Vivienne, Master Orson, the Witchfinder, Odebain and some others fall into the category of those it is more practical to "fake" their powers than code them. It also serves the story to have there be some uncertainty about the breadth and depth of the abilities of these characters.

Oh, yes, what I meant by that is that it should be kept in the Staff section of TWiki, or some such, so that everything can be kept consistent. Logging and what have you. Which, really, I can only assume is being done already! ^_^

Originally posted by SG Dathan

I would refer you to the above statement by our Lead Story Plotter, Geist. Characters and or players not knowing about certain abilities does not mean that they won't exist, or be used as necessary to forward game play.

Yes, I understand this point as well. Surprises like this are a good aprt of the game. Like I said, it should be done more for the sake of documentation, and doesn't need to be open to the public at all. Just as long as it can be kept consistent. And, as I said above, I assume such is being done already, because, well, you staffers are that awesome, right?

What I meant by those points is that the Staff should be able to say something along the lines of, "Listen, we've already hammered out these powers long ago, so we're not making them up to deal with you, you're just unlucky enough to be the first person to get stuck by them."

And, even so, in some cases new powers may be needed for a new plot. So it's all, of course, very pliable.

I'd say the biggest concern of the players is that the villains should be able and allowed to win every once and a while. (Well, as long as such winning won't result in something too detrimental (meaing as long as they game can keep running)).

I mean, heck, I think it'd be interesting of someone was able to overthrow the Queen for a while and take control of the Castle. Of course, Her Majesty in her all grace and might would eventually regain control and banish the perpetrator, but wouldn't that be a nifty plot? (And an example of the Villians winning for a while?)

Well, that's just speculation and hypothetical situations, though, so we shouldn't really continue that line of thought in this thread.

And now I see Geist has posted while I was typing this... In reply to that post, since I now feel somewhat obligated to say something, I would say "Ah, gotcha. That makes sense now that it's been gone into with a bit more detail."

And I would also like to say, because I feel like it may come off this way, that I am not asking the Staff to explain themselves to me, or to submit themselves for my approval, I am just trying to offer the point of view of a normal player and to fully understand the issue(s) at hand.

For your time in dealing with my annoying quest for understanding, I greatly thank you all.

[Priam]

Originally posted by Mouret
Oh, yes, what I meant by that is that it should be kept in the Staff section of TWiki, or some such, so that everything can be kept consistent. Logging and what have you. Which, really, I can only assume is being done already! ^_^

Not exactly.

As far as I can tell, no one ever sat down and gave extensive thought to, say, the capabilities of Sorcery. Everything that is known about it is a patchwork of IC guesses, inferences, and extrapolation. (And I say this as the player of the Apprentice to the Royal Sorceress, with fairly high skills in Sorcery...) Very basic questions (such as: what are summonings, and what exactly can be summoned or has been summoned historically?) have no existing answers.

The problem also extends to player abilities, really; there are very few existing Sorcerous abilities, and they are all low-level. No Sorcerer character really knows for sure what Sorcery can do, either. ("Oh, everything." Yeah, that answer's never cut it for me. )

[Geist]

Originally posted by Mouret
I'd say the biggest concern of the players is that the villains should be able and allowed to win every once and a while. (Well, as long as such winning won't result in something too detrimental (meaing as long as they game can keep running)).

Funny how the villains keep saying that they think the law enforcement folk have all the advantages and the law enforcement characters keep saying they think the villains have all the advantages. The reality is that by the nature of the medium both groups have a couple of advantages and then a long list of severe disadvantages. When one of the advantages comes into play, the other group gets frustrated. Unfortunate, but understandable.

Originally posted by Mouret
I mean, heck, I think it'd be interesting of someone was able to overthrow the Queen for a while and take control of the Castle. Of course, Her Majesty in her all grace and might would eventually regain control and banish the perpetrator, but wouldn't that be a nifty plot? (And an example of the Villians winning for a while?)

Dude, go for it. We came very close to a radical shift in the balance of power in the castle... a dagger's thrust away, I'd say. It can happen. I can attest to the fact that the staff is prepared to roll with anything the player base can come up with, with an exception. Due to the metaphysical nature of the game there are a couple of events that if they occured would mean the end of the game. We'd probably have to figure something out if that situation developed.

[Lyds]

Imagine logging in to see:

Game Over.

[Priam]

Originally posted by Geist
We came very close to a radical shift in the balance of power in the castle... a dagger's thrust away, I'd say.

It was a poker, and there would have had to be some dismemberment involved...

[John]

Originally posted by Geist
With regard to magic and law enforcement you'll note that the extent of direct use of magic has been more than minimal. The Royal Guard have access to one tool that they use infrequently to help them out, but that's it. there have been many many many occassions when there was opportunity for powerful magics to be used to solve crimes, but they weren't. Why? Their use was not appropriate. There are few characters in the game who have the power or ability to use that level of magic, and they're not going to make use of it if just anybody asks. Recently, some powerful magics were used and they were used only because of the circumstances involved, which were very extreme and resulted in a great deal of pressure being exerted to see some resolution to the issue.

Frankly stated, the representatives of law enforcement in the Castle don't have the influence to get those magics wielded for them regularly, which is big reason you haven't heard of it being used before. This was a very particular circumstance with very particular motivations.

I believe in my previous post I said: I think that statement stands as the answer to the question about magic used to aid law enforcement.

This does not address the times in the past in the game where it would have been something the NPC/vp would do however. Events that come to mind are, Lord G didnt use magic to find out who shot at him, the queen did not use magic to find the stolen shield gems (apprently we were told IG she couldnt find them and ooc it wasnt fair to the criminal. However these were the blessed stones of the castle, blessed by her so she has a very solid connection.), anytime the mirror of ivory and horn goes poof magic isnt used and , when the mirror of souls went poof the queen apprently couldnt find it untill the last moment.

My point? High powered people were asked, ones who had a reason to do it but for mostly (stated as so) ooc reasons it could not/would not be done becouse they broke consent/were not fair/didnt fit the plot/unnoted.

Now since magic wasnt/couldnt be used in some of these past examples, it was presumed ooc that it could not be done in this case on this matter, hence the issue.

[John]

Originally posted by Priam
It was a poker, and there would have had to be some dismemberment involved...

He might have also been refering to events that almost happened while lord B was ill and helpless as well.

[John]

Originally posted by Geist
Funny how the villains keep saying that they think the law enforcement folk have all the advantages and the law enforcement characters keep saying they think the villains have all the advantages. The reality is that by the nature of the medium both groups have a couple of advantages and then a long list of severe disadvantages. When one of the advantages comes into play, the other group gets frustrated. Unfortunate, but understandable

Hum, I dont see it as villan/law enforcement. I see it more as assisted/non assisted. In general both the law and the criminals have had SP help, be it new code, tools, or direct involvment (like with ashke). And its often this involvment that causes the issue becouse it isnt on both sides at once. One day the law can ID scrolls, a diffrent day a criminal can wear a cloak hidding themselves, on yet another the law can restrain (I know its an old ability), and yet another day the criminals can pick locks.
(and this doesnt involve the powers of VP/NPC law and criminal people)

Looking at this, I wonder if it might to always relece a advantage with a counter advantage. That way both tools enter the game at the same time and its up to players to mix and match to make things work.

[Priam]

Originally posted by John
He might have also been refering to events that almost happened while lord B was ill and helpless as well.

Somebody needs bodyguards.