On guilds (tangent from What is Castle Marrach?)

[Davog]

Since this came up in another thread (What is Castle Marrach?) and really is a completely separate topic, I thought I would start a new one.

The problems with guilds have been around for a long time (please see The Status of Guilds ).

Why is there a problem? There are a few reasons:

1. No offense intended to those people who actually take on the burden of leadership, but poor management of the guild is one problem. The majority of guilds have no structure. Someone steps (or falls) into the leaders job, and inherits a bunch of people who have no clear idea of what they are supposed to be doing. There are a few exceptions to this (the Guard which has a formal structure, and some of the martial guilds), but generally no one has specific responsibility for anything. Back when I played a counsellor, the Counsel actually had a formal structure, with certain people responsible for doing certain things, and each week there would be a meeting to discuss progress.

2. No perceived benefits for being part of a guild. You join a guild, and you can expect to do work for them... but what do you get in return? There are very few where there appear to be any obvious benefits, and in fact many which just seem to result in nothing other than heartache.

3. The converse of problem 1... a missing/ineffectual leader. Some guilds, either due to the absence of a leader or their disinterest find themselves unable to do anything. I know that there was supposed to be a change from the Office of Royal Orders to enable guilds to replace such leaders, but I don't know how effective that has been.

I am sure there are other problems, but these are the main onese I am aware of. So, how to deal with these? Addressing each specifically:

1. Give everyone in the guild something to do, or to be in charge of. Have meetings to check on progress. If one person drops the ball, be prepared to deal with that as appropriate (ie. if their task is critical and it's not getting done, reassign it). And every leader should have one, preferably two, successors lines up. So many guilds fall apart because the leader gets a promotion which takes them away from the guild, and no one is ready to take over.

2. Make people aware of the benefits. And if there aren't any, then make some. Can't see any benefit to being in the Courtesy Circle? Maybe people would view it differently if there were monthly afternoon teas with Lady Amoret. If you're stuck, talk to Launfal. I am sure the staff would be willing to help guilds stay afloat. (On a side note, I do think the active Awakeners should get a Storypoint bonus, maybe based on how many newlies they have helped. It's just a matter of finding a fair way to be able to keep track of that.)

3. I know everyone is understanding of people who for RL reasons are unable to spend much time in game. But really, if this is going to be a long term problem, then it is not fair to the rest of the guild to hold everything up. Hanging on to the leadership just because you struggled so hard to get it, even when that is damaging to the guild, is selfish. Recognise your limitations and step down. If you were good enough to be able to become leader once, you should be able to get it back again when you can devote time to the game. And if you are a guild member and the leader has disappeared, don't be afraid to talk to Launfal. It is not disloyalty to replace a missing leader if the guild is suffering.

Just a few suggestions which I hope may be of some interest. Feel free to add others. (And please, let's focus on constructive suggestions, rather than airing grievances.)

[Alyse]

And then there are the guild leaders who neglect their guilds for months, only to swoop in to claim the credit for other characters' efforts to revitalize them. I am only a trifle bitter over being cut out, not only by the guild leader but also by the VP to whose attention Alyse brought the guild's sorry state. Were this an isolated experience, perhaps it would not be as utterly annoying, but twice now it has happened. C'est la vie? Fat f**king chance.

[Uwaine]

At least most guilds can exist (and grow) without the presence of a VP who has not been played for 6-9 months, now...

[Atama]

When I wrote the BG's charter, I had just these things in mind.

So, the charter is written to have the following stuff in it:

There is a clear delegation of authority, through 3 tiers of members.

The Elders can replace a Preceptor if necessary. Or appoint a new one if the old one vanishes. There are checks and balances to this, and it's clear how this is done.

Ranking members are required to be active and to participate or they are demoted.

Ranking members can carry a sword, a clear benefit of membership. Lower-ranking ones learn fighting skills.

The guild survived 4 years of my absence so I think I did ok.

[Diedra]

Originally posted by Davog
I know that there was supposed to be a change from the Office of Royal Orders to enable guilds to replace such leaders, but I don't know how effective that has been.

From what I have seen the changes have been at least relatively effective. Others are free to disagree, and if they do in truth then that's good because I'd like to know if the perception is otherwise and what more can be done. I will say that the last few weeks may have to be a bit of an exception because I've not been in game for at least that long. OoRO has several leadership transitions to make 'formal' right now (and did when I went on break).

It was about... eh, I can't remember exactly how long ago, (I guess its been a year and half? ) all the guilds with charters had to record submission clauses in OoRO. So essentially, all the guilds have something in place that they can do automatically when someone leaves leadership. OoRO essentially accepts all those changes in leadership the group decides so long as they are appropriate and follow the succession clauses in place for the group. However... I will say that if someone leaves leadership of a group for the amount of time noted in their groups succession clause, a new leader comes into place and is formal (not temporary) ... but then the old leader comes back and plans to lead the group again... nope. That's only going to happen if the group itself decides to change leadership again - using the formal methods of choosing leaders or of leaders stepping down within their group.

~Nicole

[Diedra]

Originally posted by Atama
When I wrote the BG's charter, I had just these things in mind.

So, the charter is written to have the following stuff in it:

There is a clear delegation of authority, through 3 tiers of members.

The Elders can replace a Preceptor if necessary. Or appoint a new one if the old one vanishes. There are checks and balances to this, and it's clear how this is done.

Ranking members are required to be active and to participate or they are demoted.

Ranking members can carry a sword, a clear benefit of membership. Lower-ranking ones learn fighting skills.

The guild survived 4 years of my absence so I think I did ok.

Mmm... well, there was a rather lengthy issue that came up with the BG where they weren't functioning. Course that's IC info, but I'm sure a quick board search will tell you what went on in general.

[rgendron02]

Originally posted by Uwaine
At least most guilds can exist (and grow) without the presence of a VP who has not been played for 6-9 months, now...

*cackles*

[Atama]

Oh, I was informed very well IC about it. And Cody's not happy. He's just relieved they survived.

[John]

Originally posted by Diedra
Mmm... well, there was a rather lengthy issue that came up with the BG where they weren't functioning. Course that's IC info, but I'm sure a quick board search will tell you what went on in general.

There were a few reasons why that happened, some IG and some ooc. one of the IC/OOC problems was that for a while there were not enuf elders on to make a majorty. So while 2 might want to replace/remove the leader, since there was 1 or 2 more on the books, they had to be gotten together to meet. On paper it still worked tho, it was just that attendance of the right members made it very very hard.

[Namida]

What I see is that it again comes down to the issue that there's not enough *players* to have chars in the guilds and help make them thrive.

It's seen clearly on the IG boards that lack of people is a problem. You now have Scribes, Pages, Guard and what not of IB perk groups announcing for people to apply for a job.

A few years back, when there were more players around and the OB guilds thrived, hiring happened mostly by the word of mouth method.
You got to know a page who thought your manners were good and you would be suited, that page would go to his supperiour and recommend you, you would be approached and evaluated and then you would have to gather recommendations from the guilds and groups you had been part of to show your nature and skills and what not.
The same was true for the scribes, the leader would hear about OB'ers who did well in their guild and groups and then approach people based on this.

This in effect meant that your OB guild work, with no rank or IB access or anything actually had value and meaning as you would know that those lucrative IB jobs would come to you if you made a good impression in your OB guild.

Nam never applied to be a page, but was approached because someone had heard of her good manners and her work for the OB.
Nam never applied to become a scribe, but Mistress Faith had heard about her and approach her (turned that job down btw).
Nam never applied to become a Handmaiden but was approached by various Handmaidens over time (3 I think it was) because of her reputation, her OB work and that she was a hard worker (turned that down all the times as well).

So, the OB guilds used to have perks and rewards because the work in an OB guild was necessary to get an IB job. Pretty cool that by teaching languages to newlies and OB'ers you would be offered a job as a Scribe, no?

The Guard (from what I recall, not being close to it) used to be the perk of swordsmen from the Watch, Battlers and perhaps duelists. It was the reward for good work done, not something random newly awakened just could join in 3 months.

So - in my view, it all comes down to lack of players who can have characters who are willing to work ic and ooc for a guild and the IB starting to recruit people from the OB guilds and rely on the OB guild leaders to recommend good members and not go out themselves to grap the newly awakened before they had a chance to 'serve' their time in the OB.

I see another important reason for time spent in the OB guilds (and I'm not talking about just a month or two here, but about perhaps a year before even considering going towards the IB), and that is social network.

My time in the Rememberers, one of Nam's most important guilds, build a huge platform of friends and family that for years to come was one of the major reasons I kept returning to play. Sadly enough, only one or two are left now, 3 years later, but the OB guilds is where the whole social network is laid, and it does make for intrigue and favour games on the long run because you have these old friendships in spite of new IB positions and so on.

I just hope we can get more players to make the guilds thrive and the game as well.
I fear it's dying if something doesn't happen soon.

[Gareth]

I agree. The OB needs to be the place where new players are taken in, taught, make connections and then move on.

I saw a tremendous shift where people began to explicitly avoid OB guild work and went straight on for IB jobs. The result? Rapid promotions and often little work-work to come along with it. So you're 7th Link sipping wine with the powers-that-be, and meanwhile others are 11th Link and doing a lot of work to keep the game community working IC/OOC.

I saw a lot of people then swap from OB focus towards IB advancement focus. Yet when they would get IB jobs, often their superiors and peers who they were supposed to work with were absent, scuttling the reason they went to the IB in the first place.

Then the player was serving neither the OB or IB needs. They were caught in a sort of limbo of inactivity. We'd then see people quit IB positions and devolve to the OB, but with bitterness and cynicism.

Oh, we've seen all sorts of ups and downs. But the basic element is that there needs to be some element of reward/value for sticking it out in an OB position with a lot of work-work compared to simply going for a high-ranking linked position with little work required. Otherwise the fairness perception of the game is broken and people begin to start keeping mental score and building up OOC grudges.

One of the things that can help make OB leaders want to stay is HG status. They can get *into* the IB, but don't need to live there. That often is the best of both worlds.

In many ways, I prefer the fact that Squire Pete is only 9th Link. The IB is rather dead these days, social system wise.

That's another issue. If there is an IB community, it needs to be a bit more lively and vibrant. It needs to be self-sufficient. So far, it seems tomblike, from what I can tell. Yet just logging in and looking at the 'who' these days makes the IB seem rather ghost-town like.

Generally, I think the game worked far better when there was a loose peer of SP-to-Guild Leader, and the GLs were far more encouraged to work with a specific SP to get stuff done. The "Send it in to SP email address" methodology, or having no specific point-of-contact for a guild can often be distancing and alienating.

I know for sure that when the Duelists had three VP characters and an SP or two playing characters that the guild got far, far, far more attention and plot thrown its way than it gets these days.

In a way, I think it might be good to try to make more "junior SP" level guidance for guildleaders. How can you make your guild not just a place where you can give people a pin or armband of membership, but the central point for community and individual plotting. That's what attracted a lot of people to guilds in the beginning, and I bet you that if you told people 'join this guild, because we have these various plots going on,' that's far more compelling to players OOC than saying, "We'll have guild meetings on Tuesday." If we wanted to simply have meetings, we could all just stay at work longer.

Action. Adventure. Story.

That's what people play fantasy roleplaying games for. I know for sure it was one of the best recruiting tools for many guilds I joined and worked on -- instant gratification via plot hooks.

Guildleaders should think about this: "What adventure/action/story am I enabling my guild members to tell?"

[Aleena]

Another problem I see is being bogged down with unnecessary details. This has been an irritant of mine for years. I'm a big fan of keeping it simple and sometimes I think we all tend to suffer from detailitis. There was a time when playing a handmaiden made my brain just want to shut down. The sheer amount of crap we tried to track was out of control. I'm happier now that we no longer sweat the small stuff. I don't play this game so I can spend time working on records when I should be taking care of my family. If that means some things have to be sacrificed, so be it. Perhaps leaders should take a long hard look at what is really needed and what is not. I am 100% sure that in nearly every case, the workload can be decreased.

Also, I do agree with the fact that people should spend a little more time contributing to the OB before moving into the IB. Unfortunately, it is a vicious circle but one that if we all came together across the board could be remedied. If only a few IB organizations try to break the cycle, it just won't work. Let's say we decided to really up the bar for handmaiden. We come out swinging and make it clear that you have to show your stuff by being a senior member of one of our favoured guilds. However, another IB group offering 7th link continues to snap up new people left and right. I wonder how many people would be willing to pay the price for handmaiden then? It cannot be done alone. It -must- be across the board.

I'm willing to put forth some effort and try to solve this. How about you guys?

Just some morning coffee musings,
Heather

[Gareth]

To tell the truth, it has to be led from the top. This means that it has to be something the Queen, the Consort, the Prince and Lord Launfal all press upon people.

Us peons can attempt to influence Castle culture, but if the powers-that-be don't really reward and incent the sort of behavior that will make people happy and grateful denizens, then we're "pushing rope" as the expression goes. It'll just fold up and get tangled.

There are times when "bottom up" works. Individual leaders such as Fez or Chasity, etc., can all work towards the kind of Castle they want. But what comes across strongest is when leadership of the Castle comes from the IC Castle leadership.

Many people have felt that those leaders are out of touch with the Castle community. Promotions have often been eye-rolling, teeth-grinding events. Now, many people are happy with the promotions that occur. Some are positively gleeful.

Yet in an OOC sense, if people feel that there is little sense of promotional justice in the society -- that hard work and effort are being overlooked -- they'll tend to then vary their work effort in frustration that prior hard work did not result in the promotion they expected.

Guild leaders can also help set expectations for internal promotions they are responsible for. They can also help set up successorships and replacements.

In many ways an OB guildleader is like a small CEO or HR director. There's a lot of motivational theory and practice necessary behind keeping the game going.

So while I am committed to helping Castle culture IC and OOC, Gareth, as an 11th link exile, and Squire Pete, as a stuck-for-years-in-the-9th-Link circle are probably not going to be able to affect the miasma of middle-to-upper-court-link leadership.

Consider taking this IC, Aleena, and see if it can become more of a social movement within the game. You definitely have my support however that plays out.

-Pete.

[Briseis]

Every once in a while I get an urge to return. Then I remember why I left.

Perhaps CM should make an exit poll when characters are deleted so players can explain why they're deleting and leaving. I never left Skotos, but I have left CM and I will not be returning, at least not if the game continues on the same path as it is.

Since I don't play, I don't want to call names or point fingers, so I won't. The reasons why I left I believe are fairly well documented. And my friends know.

The issue I had with guilds was two fold.

We either had a leader that was ineffective. Judith as leader of the Winter Watch, for example. People would step up to do her work and that'd make her angry, and they'd get screwed. Mind you, Zeakk and Briseis did a fair bit of work to screw themselves over as well...but when it came down to replacing Judith, they replaced her with another inactive person. Probably because that person hadn't been around enough to actually piss people off.

The other issue I have are 'high ranked' people coming in and telling people what to do when they obviously don't realize how badly it's going to affect the guild. This can be a VP or a player. As Darcy I pushed hard to have changes put into the chroniclers that made it more appealing to players to join and stay, rather than using it as a quick-one-jump trampoline into the Inner Bailey. I had to fight every step of the way to get these changes.

I think the ultimate reason why players leave is because the game isn't a game, it's work. You can't play to enjoy. You have to get this done, and this done, and that thing there done as well. And then you have to log on to your other character and get this done, and that done. Oh, don't forget THAT too.

If I was to return to Marrach, it'd be to play a chronicler. It is the only thing in this game I enjoyed, despite the circumstances which led to me removing Darcy from the game world permanently. But the problem is I don't want to play. The entire game world is controlled by one or two people through their various alts and their friends. It's very unenjoyable when you're not in their 'crowd.' On the other hand, I have to congratulate them on their success at turning this into their Castle. It took hard work and IC manipulation to get into every single group in the castle somehow.

There is nothing wrong with the story. It's the players. You'll never get new players and keep them when there's so much 'work' and so much OOC shit to slog through.

My few cents.

Edit: The one thing I forgot to mention is the fact that even if I tell no one in game, out of game, etc. who I was played by...avoid using emotes and words that became specific to any of my characters...someone always 'tells' who my characters are. It's frustrating, I don't know who does it, etc. I've had it happen even though I never brought a character out of her room.

[Gareth]

Briseis,

You were one of those controlling players too. There's more than one or two. There's a circle of about 20 around the Castle.

Getting along in that circle of controlling players often resulted in OOC factions as well as IC factions that reflected the OOC biases.

There were things you did to exacerbate some of the poor relations with other players. Being no hypocrite, I know that there are players who I did not get along with either. Yet this is naturally part of small group dynamics.

However, many people take steps back and try to repair relationships. You tended to scuttle many attempts at reconciliation. You also did many things with your characters to make them untrustworthy and sort of left them in that mode.

It is therefore unsurprising for you to leave a "scorched earth" posting on this board. Yet it did not help you IC or OOC while you were playing, and only sours the grapes here on the Forum.

Yes, there were many frustrations you have that were valid. Then there were excesses of response from you which were often counter-productive.

Me, pot. You, kettle.